NoelJenkeGo4 and Mason.

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LonelyIowaGopher

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In response to a recent post I made about Jerry Kill's recuriting versus that of Tim Brewster, NoelJenkeGo4 called me a "pain in the ass." He also said about me that "most Holders are more interested in hearing your opinion about Mason." These are exact quotes from him.
Now why someone who thinks I'm a pain in the ass cares what I think about Coach Mason is beyond me. But to summarize what I've said earlier:
1. Outside of Lou Holtze, Mason was the best Gopher Football coach the University of Minnesota has had since Murray Warmath. But that, obviously, isn't saying much.
2. Mason came to Minnesota as a proven head coach with successful stints in the MAC and at Kansas. He was even hired for the Georgia job in the S.E.C.
3. Mason was never liked as a personality at Kansas. I know this because Iowa State played against Mason several times. He was aloof and arrogant in his last two jobs. He may also have been semi-retired on the job at Minnesota.
4. Mason put together some great offensive football teams at Minnesota. Very, very few programs ran the ball as well as Minnesota did under Mason.
5. For whatever reasons, Mason's teams simply could not play defense. This is especially puzzling in light of how well Minnesota ran the football. The defense didn't need to be on the field that much of the time. Unfortunately, they usually weren't because they gave up touchdowns so fast.
6. I HAVE given Brewster credit for two things: improving recruiting and emphasizing talent on defense. He did not leave the cupboard bare at Minnesota and the defensive unit that started to be assembled last year could become a very good one over the next few years. It was a poor defense because it was an inexperienced defense. But it played very, very well against Iowa in the last game of the year. That's probably due more to Horton than Brewster but I'll give credit to Brewster where it is due. He DID improve recruiting and put better talent on the defensive side of the ball. Defense wins championships. Just ask Michigan fans.
All of this being said, I don't know how anyone can still defend the hiring of Brewster. He had never even been a co-ordinator before. It looks like the jobs that he is nowing being offered do not include any co-ordinator positions. He had no idea how he wanted to build systems at Minnesota as witnessed by the six co-ordinators that he employed in just three and one-half seasons.
Kill is the anti-Mason and the anti-Brewster. Kill is not arrogant yet has proven competence. This will be a delightful combination and a breath of fresh air for Minnesota Gopher football fans.
 


There are a bunch of folks who come on these boards and act like internet tough guys. I'm guessing he didn't actually want your opinion and was just trying to get under your skin. Looks like it worked. Move on.
 


LonelyIowaGopher

I am not sure what his problem is but I do appreciate your response. One thing I do know though is that you can't please everybody here. As a matter of fact, I am quite sure that you have now pissed off wren with this string. Therefore your comments can't be that bad. Keep up:clap: the good work!
 


Don't feel bad...

Hey Lonely Gopher...From a fellow lonely Gopher in Virginia, I wouldn't sweat the tactless approach of a handful of 'Holers. For the most part, thoughtful dialogue and tact are the norms around here, but message boards prove to be a perfect storm of unaccountability and anonymity. Therefore, some resort to thoughtless generalizations and verbal assault to make their point.

It's a microcosm of the internet world, where social norms and the rules of interpersonal decency don't necessarily play. I, for one, enjoy your musings and can relate to the feeling of estrangement from our fine state borders. I have to put up with Hokie-love around here, and it makes me sick to see so much lovely maroon decimated by ORANGE accompaniment.:D

Go Gophers!
 

lonely iowa: here is the deal...rather than to read what you have to say about this coach or that coach, we will kill the time by counting the number of Big Ten wins that our coach achieves. We will also keep track of the number of Big Ten losses that he is responsible for. Big Ten wins vs. Big Ten losses. That is the perfect way to determine just what kind of coach we have. I hope Coach Kill does very well and can become the best coach since Coach Murray Warmath.

You are totally misinformed about lou hoax though. He did MORE to destroy Golden Gopher Football when he bagged for South Bend before the last game of his second year than any other coach who EVER coached Golden Gopher Football. His sudden departure in the middle of the night just KILLED the spirit of Gopher Football and fans disappeared...vanished into thin air vowing to NEVER to return to the damn dome for Gopher Football. The 2011 season will give us a peak into the Big Ten future for Coach Kill.

Coach Kill will be judged entirely by the number of Big Ten games he wins and the number of Big Ten games that he loses. There is NO better way to judge a Big Ten Coach. Compare his numbers to the other Big Ten Coaches currently coaching and also to all the former Gopher coaches. Then, and only then will we know what kind of a Big Ten Coach we have. I like the way he sounds and what he says. But, words are not enough. Results in terms of wins and losses of Big Ten games played will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
 

Hey Walrus, what is your all time record in a single post for stating that "big ten wins" are important, true measurement etc. etc. Your passion, obsession, OCD for this statistic begs the question. Just wondering, not saying I disagree, just wondering.
Anyone have an answer ?
 

GopherSOB said:
Hey Walrus, what is your all time record in a single post for stating that "big ten wins" are important, true measurement etc. etc. Your passion, obsession, OCD for this statistic begs the question. Just wondering, not saying I disagree, just wondering.
Anyone have an answer ?
Click to expand...

Just wait until the season starts and you'll find out that each game is 8.33% of the season. Do you care to guess why you'll never forget this factoid?
 



imthewalrus said:
lonely iowa: here is the deal...rather than to read what you have to say about this coach or that coach, we will kill the time by counting the number of Big Ten wins that our coach achieves. We will also keep track of the number of Big Ten losses that he is responsible for. Big Ten wins vs. Big Ten losses. That is the perfect way to determine just what kind of coach we have. I hope Coach Kill does very well and can become the best coach since Coach Murray Warmath.

You are totally misinformed about lou hoax though. He did MORE to destroy Golden Gopher Football when he bagged for South Bend before the last game of his second year than any other coach who EVER coached Golden Gopher Football. His sudden departure in the middle of the night just KILLED the spirit of Gopher Football and fans disappeared...vanished into thin air vowing to NEVER to return to the damn dome for Gopher Football. The 2011 season will give us a peak into the Big Ten future for Coach Kill.

Coach Kill will be judged entirely by the number of Big Ten games he wins and the number of Big Ten games that he loses. There is NO better way to judge a Big Ten Coach. Compare his numbers to the other Big Ten Coaches currently coaching and also to all the former Gopher coaches. Then, and only then will we know what kind of a Big Ten Coach we have. I like the way he sounds and what he says. But, words are not enough. Results in terms of wins and losses of Big Ten games played will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Click to expand...

Here is a picture of a mouse inside a mouse:

funny-20mouse.jpg
 

LonelyIowaGopher

imthewalrus said:
lonely iowa: here is the deal...rather than to read what you have to say about this coach or that coach, we will kill the time by counting the number of Big Ten wins that our coach achieves. We will also keep track of the number of Big Ten losses that he is responsible for. Big Ten wins vs. Big Ten losses. That is the perfect way to determine just what kind of coach we have. I hope Coach Kill does very well and can become the best coach since Coach Murray Warmath.

You are totally misinformed about lou hoax though. He did MORE to destroy Golden Gopher Football when he bagged for South Bend before the last game of his second year than any other coach who EVER coached Golden Gopher Football. His sudden departure in the middle of the night just KILLED the spirit of Gopher Football and fans disappeared...vanished into thin air vowing to NEVER to return to the damn dome for Gopher Football. The 2011 season will give us a peak into the Big Ten future for Coach Kill.

Coach Kill will be judged entirely by the number of Big Ten games he wins and the number of Big Ten games that he loses. There is NO better way to judge a Big Ten Coach. Compare his numbers to the other Big Ten Coaches currently coaching and also to all the former Gopher coaches. Then, and only then will we know what kind of a Big Ten Coach we have. I like the way he sounds and what he says. But, words are not enough. Results in terms of wins and losses of Big Ten games played will tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Click to expand...

And wren will be solely judged by the number times he says big Ten wins!
 

LonelyIowaGopher said:
In response to a recent post I made about Jerry Kill's recuriting versus that of Tim Brewster, NoelJenkeGo4 called me a "pain in the ass." He also said about me that "most Holders are more interested in hearing your opinion about Mason." These are exact quotes from him.
Now why someone who thinks I'm a pain in the ass cares what I think about Coach Mason is beyond me. But to summarize what I've said earlier:
1. Outside of Lou Holtze, Mason was the best Gopher Football coach the University of Minnesota has had since Murray Warmath. But that, obviously, isn't saying much.
2. Mason came to Minnesota as a proven head coach with successful stints in the MAC and at Kansas. He was even hired for the Georgia job in the S.E.C.
3. Mason was never liked as a personality at Kansas. I know this because Iowa State played against Mason several times. He was aloof and arrogant in his last two jobs. He may also have been semi-retired on the job at Minnesota.
4. Mason put together some great offensive football teams at Minnesota. Very, very few programs ran the ball as well as Minnesota did under Mason.
5. For whatever reasons, Mason's teams simply could not play defense. This is especially puzzling in light of how well Minnesota ran the football. The defense didn't need to be on the field that much of the time. Unfortunately, they usually weren't because they gave up touchdowns so fast.
6. I HAVE given Brewster credit for two things: improving recruiting and emphasizing talent on defense. He did not leave the cupboard bare at Minnesota and the defensive unit that started to be assembled last year could become a very good one over the next few years. It was a poor defense because it was an inexperienced defense. But it played very, very well against Iowa in the last game of the year. That's probably due more to Horton than Brewster but I'll give credit to Brewster where it is due. He DID improve recruiting and put better talent on the defensive side of the ball. Defense wins championships. Just ask Michigan fans.
All of this being said, I don't know how anyone can still defend the hiring of Brewster. He had never even been a co-ordinator before. It looks like the jobs that he is nowing being offered do not include any co-ordinator positions. He had no idea how he wanted to build systems at Minnesota as witnessed by the six co-ordinators that he employed in just three and one-half seasons.
Kill is the anti-Mason and the anti-Brewster. Kill is not arrogant yet has proven competence. This will be a delightful combination and a breath of fresh air for Minnesota Gopher football fans.
Click to expand...

1. It's Holtz and you could argue that Gutey and Stoll were better than Mason as welll
2. No, Mason had a losing record when he took the Gophers job. Last coach hired with a winning record...was Holtz
4. Mason put together several great running teams, but the Gophers had High School level sophisitication to their passing game, this is why the Gophers never had any comeback wins. A great offense can run and pass.
5. The defense was bad enough that it was both a lack of talent and poor coaching
6. Coordinators
 

EG#9 said:
1. It's Holtz and you could argue that Gutey and Stoll were better than Mason as welll
2. No, Mason had a losing record when he took the Gophers job. Last coach hired with a winning record...was Holtz
4. Mason put together several great running teams, but the Gophers had High School level sophisitication to their passing game, this is why the Gophers never had any comeback wins. A great offense can run and pass.
5. The defense was bad enough that it was both a lack of talent and poor coaching
6. Coordinators
Click to expand...

I think that I can agree with all of these points. #4 is definately true - I once heard Bill Walsh describe someone's passing game as "primitive." That would describe Mason's passing game, but IMHO Gutey's was even more primitive. #5 - I think that it was slightly more a lack of talent than coaching. Mason had a couple of pass rushers in his early years (Poole and ???another KU transfer), but not later. IMHO without a pass rusher the DC's hands are tied, so its hard to tell if the coaching was there.
 



Wasn't Gutey's last homecoming 9 -6 vs Purdue? and the following year 58-56 Darkins and Alstott?
 

Cal Stoll was a better coach than Mason.
 

Holtz took a team that wasn't just in a ditch, it was at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And he got us out of that ditch, and got us back to a bowl game in two years. We could have stayed at the bottom of the Big Ten for years. Holtz left the Gophers in position to be decent through the Gutekunst years. Gutekunst did have two bad seasons: in 1988, the Gophers were 0-6-2 in the Big Ten, and 2-7-2 overall; in 1991, the Gophers were 1-7 in the Big Ten, 2-9 overall. But he also had two winning Big Ten seasons in 6 years.

1986: 5-3 Big Ten, 6-6 overall
1987: 3-5 Big Ten, 6-5 overall
1988: 0-6-2 Big Ten, 2-7-2 overall
1989: 4-4 Big Ten, 6-5 overall
1990: 5-3 Big Ten, 6-5 overall
1991: 1-7 Big Ten, 2-9 overall

We weren't that bad off during Gutekunst's era, Had there been as many bowl games back then, the Gophers would have been to bowl games 4 of his 6 years. And if he had played a cupcake schedule, his record would look a lot better.
 

luther darville was the hoax "bagman..." It was a nasty deal that the NCAA came down upon the U of M for shortly after hoax had bagged tail for South Bend. It was a bad, bad deal for the U of M Football Program and the athletic department. hoax pretty much killed the program and the opportunity that he had when he was coach to go up against a "les steckle" led vikings program was killed the minute that hoax dumped the Minnesota Football Program and bagged tail for Notre Dame. He fled the damn dome for the lusty " old dame name" and the Golden Dome while the luther darville "bag man" investigation was about to begin over in the shadow of the abandoned " brick house" on the East Bank Campus. hoax was the worst thing to ever happen to Golden Gopher Football.

Stoll followed Murray Warmath. The Gophers had tied for the Conference Championship in 1967, just a few years before Stoll came to coach on campus, in the Brick House. It was very much the BIG TWO little eight conference in the early 70's. You took your whipping from Michigan and OSU and then the rest of the conference was pretty much all on the same footing. It was before the scholarship numbers had been cut. Stoll was a very good coach. But, the Gopher Football Program was NOT very far removed from being in the TOP levels of the Big Ten Football Conference at the time he took over.
 

Big Ten wins minus Big Ten losses can NOT be debated. The conference standings tell everyone EXACTLY how well or how poorly each and every Big Ten Program is progressing/regressing/recruiting/coaching. It also provides an excellent basis to be able to rank, rate and evaluate one Gopher Coach from all other Gopher Coaches. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to pay attention to the Big Ten Wins vs Big Ten Losses than it does to try to make bold statements based upon "fantasy recruiting rankings and stars..."

And, by the way, high school coaches in Minnesota look at wins vs losses in determining the credibility of the person who occupies the head coaching position at the University of Minnesota. IF the hype says there are great recruiting classes, but the number of Big Ten Wins does NOT coincide with the recruiting talk lies, hype and b.s. one MUST live with the reality of the acutal numbers. The numbers do NOT lie. In the final analysis, this statistic is the ONLY real statistic that can provide a TOTAL picure of the state of the program in relation to each and every other Big Ten Program.
 

imthewalrus said:
luther darville was the hoax "bagman..." It was a nasty deal that the NCAA came down upon the U of M for shortly after hoax had bagged tail for South Bend. It was a bad, bad deal for the U of M Football Program and the athletic department. hoax pretty much killed the program and the opportunity that he had when he was coach to go up against a "les steckle" led vikings program was killed the minute that hoax dumped the Minnesota Football Program and bagged tail for Notre Dame. He fled the damn dome for the lusty " old dame name" and the Golden Dome while the luther darville "bag man" investigation was about to begin over in the shadow of the abandoned " brick house" on the East Bank Campus. hoax was the worst thing to ever happen to Golden Gopher Football.

Stoll followed Murray Warmath. The Gophers had tied for the Conference Championship in 1967, just a few years before Stoll came to coach on campus, in the Brick House. It was very much the BIG TWO little eight conference in the early 70's. You took your whipping from Michigan and OSU and then the rest of the conference was pretty much all on the same footing. It was before the scholarship numbers had been cut. Stoll was a very good coach. But, the Gopher Football Program was NOT very far removed from being in the TOP levels of the Big Ten Football Conference at the time he took over.
Click to expand...

we-can-see-the-cat-now-let-it-out.jpg
 

imthewalrus said:
Big Ten wins minus Big Ten losses can NOT be debated. The conference standings tell everyone EXACTLY how well or how poorly each and every Big Ten Program is progressing/regressing/recruiting/coaching. It also provides an excellent basis to be able to rank, rate and evaluate one Gopher Coach from all other Gopher Coaches. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to pay attention to the Big Ten Wins vs Big Ten Losses than it does to try to make bold statements based upon "fantasy recruiting rankings and stars..."

And, by the way, high school coaches in Minnesota look at wins vs losses in determining the credibility of the person who occupies the head coaching position at the University of Minnesota. IF the hype says there are great recruiting classes, but the number of Big Ten Wins does NOT coincide with the recruiting talk lies, hype and b.s. one MUST live with the reality of the acutal numbers. The numbers do NOT lie. In the final analysis, this statistic is the ONLY real statistic that can provide a TOTAL picure of the state of the program in relation to each and every other Big Ten Program.
Click to expand...

86797.jpg
 

You have fallen into your own trap. You insist that the Big Ten record is the standard of measure, but you choose to ignore this to downplay Stoll. Both Stoll and Mason inherited a 4-7 team. It doesn't matter that the Gophers had won a Big Ten title a few years before Stoll was hired, all that matters is that neither coach inherited a very good team. If the Big Ten record is the standard, then clearly, Stoll stands out from the rest: he gave us out last 6-win Big ten season, and he gave us three consecutive non-losing Big Ten seasons, a feat which we haven't matched since. Mason's Big Ten record just isn't that impressive.
 

imthewalrus said:
Big Ten wins minus Big Ten losses can NOT be debated. The conference standings tell everyone EXACTLY how well or how poorly each and every Big Ten Program is progressing/regressing/recruiting/coaching. It also provides an excellent basis to be able to rank, rate and evaluate one Gopher Coach from all other Gopher Coaches. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to pay attention to the Big Ten Wins vs Big Ten Losses than it does to try to make bold statements based upon "fantasy recruiting rankings and stars..."

And, by the way, high school coaches in Minnesota look at wins vs losses in determining the credibility of the person who occupies the head coaching position at the University of Minnesota. IF the hype says there are great recruiting classes, but the number of Big Ten Wins does NOT coincide with the recruiting talk lies, hype and b.s. one MUST live with the reality of the acutal numbers. The numbers do NOT lie. In the final analysis, this statistic is the ONLY real statistic that can provide a TOTAL picure of the state of the program in relation to each and every other Big Ten Program.
Click to expand...

Simple minds like simple answers.:horse:
 

I have always considered Stoll to have been an excellent coach. In my lifetime, it has been Murray, Stoll and Mason. I am hoping that Coach Kill will surpass both Stoll and Mason and takes his place along side of Coach Warmath. And, should that happen, it would do nothing to diminish what either Stoll OR Mason managed to accomplish at Minnesota during the periods of time they had at Minnesota. Both Mason and Stoll managed to beat Michigan. And Cal Stoll was the LAST Gopher Coach to beat MSU UNTIL Mason beat MSU. Stoll had a 2-3 record against Sparty and Mason had a 5-3 record against Sparty. In between these two coaches, Sparty held bragging rights for 18 straight years.
 

The big difference to me is that Stoll was a great ambassador for the program and Mason . . . well, not so much. I would give Stoll the edge as an on-field guy as well. He was a very underrated coach.

If Bowl participation had been a more wide-open proposition in the 1970s, the Gophers would have likely gone to bowls in four of Stoll's seven seasons as head coach. Plus, there were less lollipops on Stoll's schedule than for subsequent coaches.
 

imthewalrus said:
Both Mason and Stoll managed to beat Michigan.
Click to expand...

Gutey beat 2nd ranked Michigan on the road.

Mason beat a 7-5 Michigan team on the road (then choked away a 10 point lead with less than three minutes to play the next week)

Gutey finished 5-3 in the Big Ten twice in six years. Mason did it twice in 10 years and that was only because he didn't play 6-2 Michigan or 6-2 Michigan State in 1999 or 6-2 Ohio State or 6-2 Purdue in 2003.

Gutey played 9 BCS schools in the regular season in 6 years

Mase played 3 BCS schools in 10 years.

Gutey would've gone to 4 four bowls in 6 years under current system.

Mase went to 3 bowls in his first 6 years.
 

Maximus said:
Gutey beat 2nd ranked Michigan on the road.

Mason beat a 7-5 Michigan team on the road (then choked away a 10 point lead with less than three minutes to play the next week)

Gutey finished 5-3 in the Big Ten twice in six years. Mason did it twice in 10 years and that was only because he didn't play 6-2 Michigan or 6-2 Michigan State in 1999 or 6-2 Ohio State or 6-2 Purdue in 2003.

Gutey played 9 BCS schools in the regular season in 6 years

Mase played 3 BCS schools in 10 years.

Gutey would've gone to 4 four bowls in 6 years under current system.

Mase went to 3 bowls in his first 6 years.
Click to expand...

Nicely done. I was thinking that Gutey has been overlooked a bit here and that proved it.
 

Stoll was a good coach.

Cal Stoll was a pretty good coach at Minnesota. As I recall, his firing was quite sudden--after a last game loss to Wisconsin, if I'm not mistaken.
Minnesota certainly did itself no favors by replacing Stoll with Joe Salem. That was the start of the coaching merry-go-round for Gopher football coaches.
 

I liked Cal Stoll he knew my father from the time they were having heart surgery together and he had somethings to say about the University of Minnesota. He never understood why they got rid of him for Salem. He also said it was not fair for them to get rid of him when all the coaches following him had worse records and didn't play well against the upper echelon of the Big Ten. He said my players played hard and with pride. RIP coach! You are missed.
 


Maximus said:
Gutey beat 2nd ranked Michigan on the road.

Mason beat a 7-5 Michigan team on the road (then choked away a 10 point lead with less than three minutes to play the next week)

Gutey finished 5-3 in the Big Ten twice in six years. Mason did it twice in 10 years and that was only because he didn't play 6-2 Michigan or 6-2 Michigan State in 1999 or 6-2 Ohio State or 6-2 Purdue in 2003.

Gutey played 9 BCS schools in the regular season in 6 years

Mase played 3 BCS schools in 10 years.

Gutey would've gone to 4 four bowls in 6 years under current system.

Mase went to 3 bowls in his first 6 years.
Click to expand...

All good points on Gutey. A lot of posters--mostly younger posters through no fault of their own--don't realize how limited bowl participation was until recently. My frustration with Gutey is that his teams always seemed to be really undisciplined.

I can attest to Gutey being a nice guy, at least in public. Met him once and had the chance to exchange pleasantries. Seemed like a very genuine fellow.

I don't know if it's fair to criticize Mason for his "bum of the week" non-conference schedule. It seems some of those schedules, at least the early ones, were set before he was on board.
 

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