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SelectionSunday

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I don't agree with everything Myron said, but overall I didn't have a problem with his opinion piece today. In Year 4 I don't expect to hear excuses from fans or anyone associated with the program, nor do I expect the Gophers to be in the bottom 6 of the Big Ten & still playing on play-in Thursday at the BTT.

Myron's right. Just making the NCAAs shouldn't suffice as an accomplishment next season. As he pointed out, there's still a solid, experienced core to work with in Joseph, Sampson, Iverson, Hoffarber, Williams & probably Al. The bar gets raised next year, and I think Tubby and his players will deliver. For better or worse, hopefully the final two off-court issues (Trevor and Al) are resolved before Midnight Madness, and then we can start with a clean slate, actually focus on basketball.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/g...cyaiUjc8LDyiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr
 

Would making the NCAA tourney 3 straight years, which to my knowledge has NEVER been done at the "U" not be an accomplishment?

I'm thinking folks are forgetting where we came from. Ultimately, the next step is obviously advancing and making noise in the tourney. However, the more times we get there, the better chance we have at doing just that. You cannot get to the Sweet 16 without getting to the tourney in the first place. I think we all watch hoops enough to know that anything can happen in the tourney. I have no doubt that given time, the Gophers BTT run from last year can also be replicated in the NCAAs.

Despite all the gossip and "talk" of off the court issues, I care about the results. Bottom line, we have made the tourney 2 consecutive years and have a good shot at going again. Untilt he team starts falling on the court, I am not concerned.
 

Agreed, making the NCAA 3 straight years would certainly be an accomplishment. It would be a first for U of M basketball. But winning a game or two when we get there would give it a lot more "oomph" after two straight first-round departures.

Trust me, I haven't forgotten the 0-3 Old Spice Classic followed by the Clemson debacle. It's still way too fresh in my memory. I'm appreciative of and understand what Tubby has meant to this program. Those who choose to follow the "sky is falling" crowd, knock yourself out. Enjoy being miserable. It's way too early & too many good things have already occurred just 3 years into Tubby's regime for me to enter into panic mode.
 

I didn't have a huge problem with Myron's article generally since he's is generally correct in that we all expected more from the program by Tubby year 4. My issue with the story is that upon closer examination, things are not that bad and many of the so-called issues with the program were more attributable to bad luck than impropriety.

It would be nice if stories like these looked at both sides of the coin and didn't oversimplify. As pointed out, we're looking at a third NCAA trip in three years (historic for the U) and we just came off a season where the team overcame a good deal of off-the-court issues and made a rather remarkable run to get into the NCAA tourney.
 

I don't see anything good about the article. It is typical Star & Trib negativism. What is the purpose of the article? If I was a kid considering the U and I read it how would I react? The constant barage of this stuff certainly does not help Brew or Tubby recruit.

How could someone predict what happened to the team? Carter is listed as a defection in the artilce. For heaven sakes his sister has cancer. Trevor should have had his trial long ago and should have played last year but for the fact that where he lives apparently never heard of a 'speedy and fair trial', unless of course you have lots of money. White had a history that should have predicted his behavior but who would not have taken a chance on a top 20 player in your own state? Cobbs decided to transfer because he believed that Corey was going to the U and he would wind up 4th in rotation; he just continued to act on his decision even after Corey said no. Al screwed up in class.

We finally have a great coach in basketball after years of mediocrity. Things happen that are often out of iour control sometimes. There is not one coach in all of college basketball that I would rather have than the one we have. Myron - who would you rather have?
 


We have come a long way, getting 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 3 years, we are on the right track and that is the doing of Tubby and Tubby only. Without him we win maybe 6 games in the B10 this year, and 14 games overall, and thats if we landed the recruits we have now without smith, which we wouldn't have. Its not tubby's fault Mbakwe can't play, Royce left, and PC transferred. If those things didn't happen, we make the sweet 16 and possibly go further. As far as 2010 recruitng class goes, he brought in 2 really good players in Mo and Hollins, plus Oto and Eliason will be good in time I think. Next year we might even land 2 top 100 prospects and 2012 maybe more than 2. My point is, we are on the right track.
 

SelectionSunday said:
I don't agree with everything Myron said, but overall I didn't have a problem with his opinion piece today. In Year 4 I don't expect to hear excuses from fans or anyone associated with the program, nor do I expect the Gophers to be in the bottom 6 of the Big Ten & still playing on play-in Thursday at the BTT.

Myron's right. Just making the NCAAs shouldn't suffice as an accomplishment next season. As he pointed out, there's still a solid, experienced core to work with in Joseph, Sampson, Iverson, Hoffarber, Williams & probably Al. The bar gets raised next year, and I think Tubby and his players will deliver. For better or worse, hopefully the final two off-court issues (Trevor and Al) are resolved before Midnight Madness, and then we can start with a clean slate, actually focus on basketball.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/g...cyaiUjc8LDyiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUr
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All in all, neither do I (have a beef with hs article). Tone is a little harsh but content gets to the right points.

20 W in 2008 was good.

22 W in 2009 and 21 W in 2010 were fair. Those teams were capable of 25 W or more.

Minimum expecations for 2011 are 25 W and Sweet 16 (or AT LEAST 1 W in NCAA).
 

Making the tournament three years in a row would be a decent accomplishment. But if in those three years, we are a 10 seed, an 11 seed, and let's say a nine seed and we lose badly in the first round all three years, is that really an accomplishment? Do we honestly not think we could have found a different coach to put is on the bubble every year?

Isn't the point of having Tubby to do far better than that? I would think making the tourney should be nearly a given. Tubby was supposed to and is getting paid to bring this program to a higher level. Maybe this year will be great and everything will be moot. But if we miss the tourney or lose badly in the first round yet again, I'd hardly call that an accomplishment. And I'd hope Tubby would feel the same way.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
Making the tournament three years in a row would be a decent accomplishment. But if in those three years, we are a 10 seed, an 11 seed, and let's say a nine seed and we lose badly in the first round all three years, is that really an accomplishment? Do we honestly not think we could have found a different coach to put is on the bubble every year?

Isn't the point of having Tubby to do far better than that? I would think making the tourney should be nearly a given. Tubby was supposed to and is getting paid to bring this program to a higher level. Maybe this year will be great and everything will be moot. But if we miss the tourney or lose badly in the first round yet again, I'd hardly call that an accomplishment. And I'd hope Tubby would feel the same way.
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Prior to Minnesota, Tubby had been to NCAA in 14 of 16 seasons. His teams won at least 1 game in 13 of those 14 years. And at least 2 games in 9 of the 14. Only his 1997 team lost in 1st round.

Those are HIS expectations. 0-2 in NCAA and 0-1 in NIT fall far short of those, I think.
 




It's too bad...

I've really come to feel sorry for Myron. He really doesn't have the talent, respect, or meaningful access (not to mention probably the full support of his employer) to be a relevant source for news in this market.

He's come to the realization that the only way to spark any interest in his product is to try to strike a chord with the fan base, poking them in the ribs periodically, in order to get a reaction, essentially to remind us that he's still there, "fighting the good fight".

Some folks might feel that Tubby's tenure hasn't lived up to THEIR expectations so far and that's fine. At this point, Tubby's done about as well as a reasonable person could have expected up to this point, in light of all the side shows and distractions.

It would be just as easy for somebody to make this argument, in my opinion:

Despite the events of last season that have been beaten to death (White, Mbakwe, and Nolen's sudden departure), without three key contributors, with the season appearing to be dead in the water at the end of January, Tubby throws Devoe Joseph at PG, more Iverson and Sampson on the floor, and makes an improbable run to close the season, all the way to the BT Tourney Title game, and into the NCAA tournament.

How is THAT not just as much of a story as "Tubby has done nothing to disappoint up to this point and now his career is marred, etc....."?

The funny thing is, had Myron actually taken the above-mentioned stance, he might have discovered that it would have elicited just as much of a reaction as the path he chose to take.

Don't get me wrong, I also expected the Gophers to have enjoyed a little more success up to this point; but I also expected Mbakwe, White, and Nolen to play full seasons last year as well.

Ask yourself this: If Mbakwe and White had experienced season-ending injuries in November, and Nolen in January, would we really be having this conversation? I have a feeling that the perception would be a little different, for whatever the reason.
 

Maximus said:
Beilein? Lickliter? Gillespie?
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Those are the guys that have been unsuccessful. NOw what about all the ones that have? And are those guys Tubby should be compared to anyway? Really?

Monson was on the bubble and bascially a game away each year from back to back tourneys in '02 and '03. And he is considered the worst coach of all-time around these parts.

What are your expectations for Tubby? Are we never allowed to expect more? I'm not expecting us to be in the Final Four every year. But battling for a tourney berth every year seems to be a given for a coach like that, not an accomplishment.

The acceptance of mediocrity is not confined to our AD and Athletic Department. Apparently, we as fans should be thrilled to death with these past three years.

I'm not usually a doom and gloom guy. I always have extreme optimism whena season starts. I'm not too upset with what Tubby has done, but the issue is where are we going? Do we really get the sense this program is on the rise right now? That's highly debatable. If this turns into a great season, then awesome. But as of right now, we don't appear to be headed in that direction. Hence, the negaticity surrounding the program.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Don't get me wrong, I also expected the Gophers to have enjoyed a little more success up to this point; but I also expected Mbakwe, White, and Nolen to play full seasons last year as well.
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I agree with most everything you said. However, I have a hard time playing woe is Tubby for Mbakwe and White's issues. I was not in favor of recruiting White from the moment he was expelled from De La Salle. People don't get expelled from a high school for nothing, despite so many telling us he simply cheated on a test. That was clearly ridiculous and it's not surprising White's issues have followed him. Taking on a transient like Mbakwe was also risky.

This isn't hindsight. I expressed thoe views at the time. Like any fan, when they were enrolled, I held high hopes, but I am not one bit surprised that neither may ever play a minute for this university.

Tubby chose to take the risk; therefore, Tubby has to deal with the fallout. He did an admirable job at the end of the year, and I enjoyed the turnaround as much as anyone. Unfortuantely, that game against Xavier left a bad taste. I hope those players that contributed down the stretch continue to improve. If they do, the upcoming season might be far better than it feels like it will be right now. But fair or not, Tubby is responsible for the players on the team.
 



I think the Gophs can get back to the tourney next year and hopefully win a game or two. The draw is always an issue, unless of course you have a great club. Getting to this point with the program has been an accomplishment, getting into the top four in the Big Ten is much more difficult in my opinion. Izzo can coach and recruit, Painter can coach and recruit, Matta is a fabulous recruiter, Ryan's teams always compete, Illinois has a couple of great classes coming in. Tubby can definitely coach and he's going to have to. I'm already excited about next year.
 

I hate how people say we just got blown out by xavier and that was a terrible tournment loss, yes we could have won, and yes it could have been closer, but this was a team who had one of college basketball's best players and took the 2 seed Kansas State to double overtime and could have gone to the elite eight, maybe final four if they beat kansas state. This was a tough team no doubt, no cake walk
 

I wonder if Myron would have written this indictment had Cory Joseph committed to the University of Minnesota? Consider, Cory Joseph was the blue-chip out-of-state prospect who allegedly narrowed his choice to between UT and Minnesota.

On the other hand, there is a disturbing pattern to coaches who are hired by the University of Minnesota. The trend I follow is the year-to-year caliber of new recruits brought into their respective program. It seems that the first crop of recruits always comes out to be their best, and the degradation of 'scored' talent persists until the coach is fired. With football, this pattern with Coach Mason and exists now with Coach Brewster. Unfortunately, the trend now surfaces with Coach Tubby (although, as I contend, is would be a non-factor had Cory Joseph signed here).

But Myron is right on one measure. It comes down to wins/losses and post-season results. This is the ultimate arbitrator.
 

Tubby wasn't hired to make the program one of the top fifty in the country. He was hired to make the U one of the top ten basketball schools in the nation. There was no other reason to bring in a coach with his resume and at his salary. Obviously, it is unlikely to happen overnight. However, a four to five year time frame seems reasonable.
 

I don't think Tubby was ever hired to make our team a top ten team. He was hired to make our team better, which we are. Top ten teams win championships, it even takes duke and NC 4-5 years to win ships and they have rosters filled with all americans and 4 star prospects and 5 stars.

I believe we will be top ten if tubby stays another 4-5 years. Then I see it happening, but if we ever are top ten, it will be a couple of years from now. Maybe 2012, 2013 at earliest.
 

While Myron dismisses excuse making, not having Trevor and Royce play last season and potentially longer has a direct bearing on the future of recruiting.

Top recruits are attracted to the best basketball programs as measured by post-season success. Few doubt that the Gophers would have had performed better last season and in subsequent seasons had Trevor and Royce contributed.
 

He was hired to make the U one of the top ten basketball schools in the nation
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What are you smokin? Tubby was hired to turn the program around not make wine out of water. Turning it around will bring greater expectations (see this thread) but anyone who thinks Tubby was hired to make us a Top 10 program is dreaming.
 

Saying Tubby was hired to make us one of the top 10 basketball programs in the country is pure hyperbole. Was he hired (and paid a big salary, yes) to make Minnesota relevant again and get the Gopher program to the point where we're it's legitimate factor in the Big Ten and then the NCAA Tournament? To that I would answer a definitive yes. I think the Gophers are relevant again, now the next step (and the tougher one) is climbing the Big Ten ladder and following it with NCAA success.

By my calculations, the top 10 basketball programs over the last 10+ seasons have been Arizona, Duke, Florida, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan State, North Carolina, Syracuse, UCLA & UConn. Those are some pretty heady names. Maybe I'm out to lunch, but I don't know any reasonable person who would expect the Gopher program to be hangin' with that company after just a 4- or 5-year time frame. Holy crap.
 

jamiche said:
Tubby wasn't hired to make the program one of the top fifty in the country. He was hired to make the U one of the top ten basketball schools in the nation. There was no other reason to bring in a coach with his resume and at his salary. Obviously, it is unlikely to happen overnight. However, a four to five year time frame seems reasonable.
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This being the fourth season coming up, you expect the Gophers to be a top ten team otherwise you're disappointed?
 

MinneMike said:
The trend I follow is the year-to-year caliber of new recruits brought into their respective program. It seems that the first crop of recruits always comes out to be their best, and the degradation of 'scored' talent persists until the coach is fired. With football, this pattern with Coach Mason and exists now with Coach Brewster. Unfortunately, the trend now surfaces with Coach Tubby (although, as I contend, is would be a non-factor had Cory Joseph signed here).
Click to expand...

This is certainly not unique to Minnesota. The "new coach bump" in recruiting is a real phenomenon, and it takes place with virtually every new coaching hire in Division I. The coaches who are able to stem/reverse the trend by years 4 and 5 are the ones that have success and build stable programs. Whether Tubby and/or Brewster can do this over the next year or two will be the crux of their continued success (or lack thereof) here.
 

jamiche said:
Tubby wasn't hired to make the program one of the top fifty in the country. He was hired to make the U one of the top ten basketball schools in the nation. There was no other reason to bring in a coach with his resume and at his salary. Obviously, it is unlikely to happen overnight. However, a four to five year time frame seems reasonable.
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I think you've already been sufficiently ripped for this comments by others. Clearly 'top 10' is way over the top. He was hired to get us back competing for Big 10 titles, but that does not equate to a top 10 national program overall. You obviously had some pretty unrealistic expectations and are a bit bitter about them not being met. I'd say you need to revaluate the expectations. Do you honestly think that whoever replaces Tubby Smith is going to be an improvement?
 

dpodoll68 said:
This is certainly not unique to Minnesota. The "new coach bump" in recruiting is a real phenomenon, and it takes place with virtually every new coaching hire in Division I. The coaches who are able to stem/reverse the trend by years 4 and 5 are the ones that have success and build stable programs. Whether Tubby and/or Brewster can do this over the next year or two will be the crux of their continued success (or lack thereof) here.
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The better word is 'sustain' the year-over-year top-tier basketball recruits. As to your coined "new coach bump," whatever. Irrespective, you obviously agree with my points chapter and verse, so congratulations! Go to the head of the class.
 

I BLAME TUBBY!!!!!

1. For kicking the snot out of the Wisconsin Badgers the last few years, and
2. For defeating two top ranked Big Ten teams back-to-back on successive days in the Big Ten Tournament.

Admit, Coach, it's all your fault. Man up!
 

Keep digging your hole deeper...

jamiche said:
Tubby wasn't hired to make the program one of the top fifty in the country. He was hired to make the U one of the top ten basketball schools in the nation. There was no other reason to bring in a coach with his resume and at his salary. Obviously, it is unlikely to happen overnight. However, a four to five year time frame seems reasonable.
Click to expand...
 

howeda7 said:
I think you've already been sufficiently ripped for this comments by others. Clearly 'top 10' is way over the top. He was hired to get us back competing for Big 10 titles, but that does not equate to a top 10 national program overall. You obviously had some pretty unrealistic expectations and are a bit bitter about them not being met. I'd say you need to revaluate the expectations. Do you honestly think that whoever replaces Tubby Smith is going to be an improvement?
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If you are consistently competing for a B10 title that makes you one of the 10 best programs in the country so we are essentially saying the same thing. I said a four to five year period is a reasonable time frame to see if that is achievable. I'm not bitter about anything because there has been a definite improvement and because it's just a basketball team, not life.. I am, as a customer, aggravated about the home NC schedule, which I've said early and often.
 


Go Gophs eh? said:
I don't think Tubby was ever hired to make our team a top ten team. He was hired to make our team better, which we are. Top ten teams win championships, it even takes duke and NC 4-5 years to win ships and they have rosters filled with all americans and 4 star prospects and 5 stars.

I believe we will be top ten if tubby stays another 4-5 years. Then I see it happening, but if we ever are top ten, it will be a couple of years from now. Maybe 2012, 2013 at earliest.
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So you and I aren't that far off. 2011-2012 is the five year mark.
 

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