Monson recruiting versus Tubby's

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Blackhammer

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I was thinking about the players the two have brought in and there's not much difference.Even this years team with Monson recruits Nolan and Hoffarber.Grier was better then anyone Tubby has recruited.Jerry Holmen,Rickert,Humpries,D. Coleman as bigs with fowards like Stamper,Taverius Bennett along with Damon are all better recruits than Tubby has brought in.Westbrook,Kerwin Fleming,little A and even Hargrow look good with the guard situation Tubby had this year.His three big time gets Mibwuake,Joseph and Royce White,one will be here a year,one left in the middle of the year and the other never played.It's got to and I hope ,get better under Tubby.This year's class have better look good along with redshirts and stick around or I'll have to start agree with those who say Tubby has lost it.
 

Two things - Johnson and Westbrook were nothing until Tubby got here. You may count them as Monson's recruits, but their play under Tubby is what makes them fondly remembered. We also haven't had much time to see any of Tubby's guards.

You can't really judge these guards until their Sophomore season. Guards have all the ball-handling duties, and it's a big leap from high-school to college ball. Chip and Hollins both showed flashes at times this year.
 

I do agree it's a little early to judge his recruits.This program I hope is on the way up and not as some have suggested peaked under Tubby.Hollins could have probably used a redshirt this year.Players should get better every year.I haven't seen enough of that yet under Tubby.
 

Jeshurun said:
Two things - Johnson and Westbrook were nothing until Tubby got here. You may count them as Monson's recruits, but their play under Tubby is what makes them fondly remembered. We also haven't had much time to see any of Tubby's guards.

You can't really judge these guards until their Sophomore season. Guards have all the ball-handling duties, and it's a big leap from high-school to college ball. Chip and Hollins both showed flashes at times this year.
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Jeshurun - that's silly. Tubby's a better coach. But to say that Johnson and Westbrook were nothing until Tubby got here is kind of nuts isn't it? I mean-seriously- they were freshmen when Monson had them. How good were Arob, Hagen and Coleman as frosh? Well they were nothing until Monson got here right? Oh wait Monson was their coach when they were frosh. Under Tubby - some have developed and some have not. Iverson-not. Sampson -not much. Williams- not much. Johnson developed very well and Westbrook- well Westbrook -what you see is what you get he came here a gunner and he left a gunner.

I'd say Tubby has recruited a bit better overall, but it's been below the recruiting bonanza I expected based upon his name. Somebody is going to bring up Royce White. Sorry he doen't count. If you don't play- you don't count. I do have a feeling that this next group is Tubby's best here in Minny- good recruits who barring something unexpected will play for the Gophers and play well.
 



I think Tubby went after some star power his first couple years to kick start things. Unfortunately for him, it kinda blew up in his face cause of the issues these stars ended up causing rather than their play on the floor. Don't get me wrong, Tubby still goes after the best players he can, but I think these last two recruiting classes, he's really gone after kids with good heads on their shoulders, and without the potential drama. At the same time though, these kids don't lack in talent. Guys like both Hollins', Eliason, Big Mo, Joe Coleman, these are top 150 type kids. In two years I wouldn't be surprised if that was our starting lineup. Besides Andre Hollins, they don't have much of the fanfare a Royce White garnered, but I feel a heck of a lot better about their chances of sticking around and developing into a core that can take us places.
 

Monson let Leuer and Taylor escape to WI and you are telling me he recruited as well as Tubby? Maybe Tubby's recruits haven't panned out as well as they should have, but to say Monson recruited as well as Tubby is just plain ridiculous. How many re-treds did Monson end up with? All MN kids who didn't want to play of Monson, but came back simply because they were homesick.
 

Monty519 said:
I think Tubby went after some star power his first couple years to kick start things. Unfortunately for him, it kinda blew up in his face cause of the issues these stars ended up causing rather than their play on the floor. Don't get me wrong, Tubby still goes after the best players he can, but I think these last two recruiting classes, he's really gone after kids with good heads on their shoulders, and without the potential drama. At the same time though, these kids don't lack in talent. Guys like both Hollins', Eliason, Big Mo, Joe Coleman, these are top 150 type kids. In two years I wouldn't be surprised if that was our starting lineup. Besides Andre Hollins, they don't have much of the fanfare a Royce White garnered, but I feel a heck of a lot better about their chances of sticking around and developing into a core that can take us places.
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Might be the starting line up next year if certain returnees either don't return or don't improve.
 

BballJones said:
Monson let Leuer and Taylor escape to WI and you are telling me he recruited as well as Tubby? Maybe Tubby's recruits haven't panned out as well as they should have, but to say Monson recruited as well as Tubby is just plain ridiculous. How many re-treds did Monson end up with? All MN kids who didn't want to play of Monson, but came back simply because they were homesick.
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That's true but like I mentioned Monson had probation to deal with.I hated all the re-treads.The key with Tub is going to be developing the players he gets.Prorams like Minnesota needs to have junior and seniors who have improved year after year.Our junior class bigs lack of developement has really has hurt.The other upperclassmen had left.Devoe,Paul Carter.Bostick would be the one Tubby guy who stuck around and he never became a player.It's time to get kids, keep them here for four years and grow into a good team.That means not giving up on guys like Chip,Maverik or Hollins after they don't set the world on fire as frosh.This program has lacked stability under Tubby.We need no more drama.
 



If guys are gonna be the type of players we need to take us to the next level, they will excel as freshman. At least at the end of their freshman year. Not saying those players that don't can't be servicable or decent players, but they will rarely be a difference maker.
Anyone remember what Jacobsen and Lewis looked like as freshman? A hell of alot better than any we have on this squad now. Many folks were excited for those two after their freshman year, you could just tell they were going to be stars.
Those types of guys are difference makes. Hollins, Armelin, etc are not difference makers.
 

Go Gophs said:
If guys are gonna be the type of players we need to take us to the next level, they will excel as freshman. At least at the end of their freshman year. Not saying those players that don't can't be servicable or decent players, but they will rarely be a difference maker.
Anyone remember what Jacobsen and Lewis looked like as freshman? A hell of alot better than any we have on this squad now. Many folks were excited for those two after their freshman year, you could just tell they were going to be stars.
Those types of guys are difference makes. Hollins, Armelin, etc are not difference makers.
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Agreed.
 

Hollins could be pretty good.Voshan Lenerd comes to mind as a guy who you could tell was a difference maker.Some guys do make a big jump from their freshmen years to what they become however.Eric Harris comes to mind along with Damion.I believe Bo Ryan redshirted Jordan Taylor.
 

You could tell with Willie Burton his freshman year and Melvin Newbern in his first (sophomore) year as well.
 



Blackhammer said:
Hollins could be pretty good.Voshan Lenerd comes to mind as a guy who you could tell was a difference maker.Some guys do make a big jump from their freshmen years to what they become however.Eric Harris comes to mind along with Damion.I believe Bo Ryan redshirted Jordan Taylor.
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Jordan Taylor was not redshirted.
 

as I recall, Rickert was going elsewhere and had second thoughts and Tom Izzo prompted him to come for his year at the U. Monson was unsuccessful in recruiting him and just got lucky.
 



Blackhammer said:
Hollins could be pretty good.Voshan Lenerd comes to mind as a guy who you could tell was a difference maker.Some guys do make a big jump from their freshmen years to what they become however.Eric Harris comes to mind along with Damion.I believe Bo Ryan redshirted Jordan Taylor.
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Just my opinion, but I thought Chip is the one freshman that looked like he could be a difference maker. I did not think any of the other Frosh really showed much...
 

gopherbadgerman said:
Just my opinion, but I thought Chip is the one freshman that looked like he could be a difference maker. I did not think any of the other Frosh really showed much...
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Chip had spurts, but was pretty bad on D. His finishing around rim is amazing. I'd have to say Hollins was just as impressive though, but it was on D (and a little on offense). I think Hollins was our best defender once Al went down.
 

Blackhammer said:
That's true but like I mentioned Monson had probation to deal with.I hated all the re-treads.The key with Tub is going to be developing the players he gets.Prorams like Minnesota needs to have junior and seniors who have improved year after year.Our junior class bigs lack of developement has really has hurt.The other upperclassmen had left.Devoe,Paul Carter.Bostick would be the one Tubby guy who stuck around and he never became a player.It's time to get kids, keep them here for four years and grow into a good team.That means not giving up on guys like Chip,Maverik or Hollins after they don't set the world on fire as frosh.This program has lacked stability under Tubby.We need no more drama.
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I agree to some level. I think you are mixing up recruiting ability vs recruiting the "right" guys. IMO, Tubby hands down out recruits Monson. However, many of Tubby's recruits have not panned out. Just looking at recruiting classes (before on court results), there are very few classes that Monson had that were even somewhat impressive. The only one that comes to mind is Rickert/Holman/Mo. For the record, I've given up on Mav. I sure hope he proves me wrong, but I don't believe he should be playing Big Ten ball. I guess you need backups too....
 

So we're going to be a perennial top-25 team but never have a top-50 recruit on the roster? The math doesn't add up in my mind, but I suppose it could work if the team was getting top 75-150 recruits who improved and stayed four years.

It'd be nice if one of those prerequisites actually happened. As it's going, this team will continually strive for top-45 status and annual excitement as a bubble team.

Get excited!
 

I never thought we would see a conversation like this on the 'Hole after Tubby was hired. While I think that Tubby clearly outrecruits Monson, it is notable that the gap has not been so wide that a question acutally can be debated.

Some thoughts:

Tubby is clearly better than Monson in landing in state talent and has not lost a kid he's wanted in state. Monson spent a lot of time on Mckenzie, missed on him, and the time spent on McKenzie alienated Kam Taylor so we missed out on both guards in that class. Dan landed both Humphries and Rickert, but both came under unusual circumstances with previous commitments to other schools. Monson lost an in state kid in Leuer to Wisconsin (and Jordan Taylor) as well as a might as well be in state kid in Krabbenhoft to Wisconsin. Tubby has landed Royce, Rodney, and Joe in state.

I would not have guessed that 4 years in to Tubby's tenure, he would not have put a player on the court who could have more impact than Vincent Grier. I also would not have guessed that losing the last of Monson's recruits would be major cause for concern in the outlook for Tubby's 5th season.
 

There's a problem either way you look at it. I'm personally not sure how much better Tubby's recruiting has been because there's more that goes into it besides stars and whatnot. Still, the numbers are better for Tubby's recruiting. There's no denying that. But we lose because there is little player development of these talents. Our big men are just flat out bad. And they were both highly rated. Another issue that gets danced around with Tubby is that he has a LOT of players leave early, and not because they are NBA ready, to either transfers or draft. This was a trend that started at Kentucky.
 

Blackhammer,

Judging from your overly high rating of his players, you have a real thing for the nose-picking, inarticulate goober we call Monson.
 

Gopher4Life said:
Blackhammer,

Judging from your overly high rating of his players, you have a real thing for the nose-picking, inarticulate goober we call Monson.
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Nope.wanted him gone.I'm more disappointed in Tubby's recruiting and his not recruiting kids that have the character to stay here.Maybe this years class along with Walker,Elliot and Oto will change my opinion.
 

BballJones said:
Monson let Leuer and Taylor escape to WI and you are telling me he recruited as well as Tubby? Maybe Tubby's recruits haven't panned out as well as they should have, but to say Monson recruited as well as Tubby is just plain ridiculous. How many re-treds did Monson end up with? All MN kids who didn't want to play of Monson, but came back simply because they were homesick.
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Don't forget that he let Trent Lockett, Trevor Mbakwe and Cole Aldrich slip through his fingers too. It doesn't seem like Monson thought very highly of Minnesota high school basketball players, which is unfortunate. He got burned sooooo many times.
 

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