Moderna

bga1

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You have tried them all and they did not work, or you tried nothing, and hope the rest of us grow horns.
I have common sense and statistics on my side. You say what you are told to think. I didn't say that the vaccines don't work at all, I said they don't work very well. That's obviously true. They do not offer immunity to any great degree and a vaccine which fails at that likely spurs the onset of variants. Natural immunity is much better and safer. Fortunately I have that.
 

bga1

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A candidate for "bga's 10 worst threads started" list.

And believe you me, that's a tough list to crack.
My worst 10 would be better than your best 10. Any list other than the low IQ list is tough for you to crack.
 

saintpaulguy

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I have common sense and statistics on my side. You say what you are told to think. I didn't say that the vaccines don't work at all, I said they don't work very well. That's obviously true. They do not offer immunity to any great degree and a vaccine which fails at that likely spurs the onset of variants. Natural immunity is much better and safer. Fortunately I have that.
So, should people vax or have pox parties?
 


bga1

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It's certainly starting to look that way at times, no?
The more the variants come - the worse the vax will fare. Worse yet than being ineffective, the vax could eventually set off bad autoimmune issues when the signal the vax sends won't cut it against the variant.
 



Section2

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Most of the facilities are private. Many people have private health insurance. Yes all are subject to some regulations, but as usual you can't help going overboard.
Not “some” regulations. Take private health insurance. Government mandates employers provide it, mandates what must be included, mandates how much money insurers can make, and a million other things.
the facilities are private? You mean the actual buildings?
capitalism works. Markets work. If you want to have government give money to poorer individuals to purchase health care with, great. Let markets work. But what you can’t do is pretend this is something it’s not.
 

Section2

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The more the variants come - the worse the vax will fare. Worse yet than being ineffective, the vax could eventually set off bad autoimmune issues when the signal the vax sends won't cut it against the variant.
Increasingly likely we look back and realize that none of the government intervention did anything to stop the damage from the virus, and all it did was destroy lives, economies, societies.
 

Section2

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It's the correct answer. The Feds were the customer which is what you're whining about.
Which means, Wally is wrong. This is not capitalism it is cronyism or fascism, take your pick. It’s great to make a product individuals purchase and get rich. Not great to make a product that the government purchases in bulk and then forces individuals to consume.
 



bga1

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Increasingly likely we look back and realize that none of the government intervention did anything to stop the damage from the virus, and all it did was destroy lives, economies, societies.
100% right. And with this event we just learned it (the effect of government intervention) faster. It took a long time to get the visual on the suffering the Great Society caused and many still don't get it (as we see here). I used to think they were just well intended idiots. I no longer think they are well intended....
 

Wally

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What’s the part of the health care system which is NOT controlled by government. It would be more effective to sometimes make counter arguments, rather than only relying on sarcasm and claims of exaggeration.
By your logic, What part of anything isn't?

I can't walk around naked and piss wherever I want... therefore in Deuce land I am a government controlled robot.
 

Wally

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Which means, Wally is wrong. This is not capitalism it is cronyism or fascism, take your pick. It’s great to make a product individuals purchase and get rich. Not great to make a product that the government purchases in bulk and then forces individuals to consume.

I don't believe in forcing it.

But in Deuceland the phama companies sell the shot for hundreds of dollars, to individuals, because freedom.

In the real world we choose a government we hope will make decisions to better society and in turn us as individuals. Negotiating a good price on hundreds of millions of doses is precisely something the government can and should do.
 

kg21

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By your logic, What part of anything isn't?

I can't walk around naked and piss wherever I want... therefore in Deuce land I am a government controlled robot.
You can't walk around naked and piss wherever you want?

You mean it's not your body, your choice?
 



saintpaulguy

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The more the variants come - the worse the vax will fare. Worse yet than being ineffective, the vax could eventually set off bad autoimmune issues when the signal the vax sends won't cut it against the variant.
How will natural immunity fare against the variants?
 

Blizzard

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How will natural immunity fare against the variants?

It seems to me at least that the case is strong that natural immunity is far better than the vaccines. It goes something like this:

The vaccines are made essentially one way; to go after the spike protein of the virus. That's it. The vaccine doesn't evolve. The virus does. If the virus evolves around that one way that the vaccine protects us against - game over. I believe that is the fear with the MU variant. That doesn't mean that the vaccines are unhelpful, they clearly are and it seems they've proven that with lower hospitalizations and what have you. That doesn't speak much of natural immunity, but until I see all the cases of folks getting Covid the 2nd time and being hospitalized and whatever else: I'll believe natural immunity is better.
 

Wally

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It seems to me at least that the case is strong that natural immunity is far better than the vaccines. It goes something like this:

The vaccines are made essentially one way; to go after the spike protein of the virus. That's it. The vaccine doesn't evolve. The virus does. If the virus evolves around that one way that the vaccine protects us against - game over. I believe that is the fear with the MU variant. That doesn't mean that the vaccines are unhelpful, they clearly are and it seems they've proven that with lower hospitalizations and what have you. That doesn't speak much of natural immunity, but until I see all the cases of folks getting Covid the 2nd time and being hospitalized and whatever else: I'll believe natural immunity is better.

The only problem with this is that the spike protein appears to be crucial for the virus, that's how it gets into your cells.

Both natural immunity and the vaccine can drive new variant formation. Just look at the flu, it's a never ending cycle of new variants and there is much lower vaccination rate for the flu worldwide.

I got one flu vaccine in my life and I am pretty sure I got sick as hell with the swine flu a couple months after that vaccination.
 

bga1

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How will natural immunity fare against the variants?
Much better than the vaccine. Much, much better. Look, if they could show that natural immunity was failing they would move heaven and earth to show those statistics. It would be an absolute bonanza for pharma companies with a vax to show this. They cannot. Most studies are showing that natural immunity to Covid could last years if not your lifetime.

In Israel studies are showing that natural immunity is faring 6 to 13 times better than the vax.
 

Blizzard

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The only problem with this is that the spike protein appears to be crucial for the virus, that's how it gets into your cells.

Both natural immunity and the vaccine can drive new variant formation. Just look at the flu, it's a never ending cycle of new variants and there is much lower vaccination rate for the flu worldwide.

I got one flu vaccine in my life and I am pretty sure I got sick as hell with the swine flu a couple months after that vaccination.

But it was something in the spike protein that gave us the Delta variant. A micron of a micron of a micron of a micron. I don't pretend to know anything about this stuff. The virus will keep evolving around the vaccines.
 


saintpaulguy

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It seems to me at least that the case is strong that natural immunity is far better than the vaccines. It goes something like this:

The vaccines are made essentially one way; to go after the spike protein of the virus. That's it. The vaccine doesn't evolve. The virus does. If the virus evolves around that one way that the vaccine protects us against - game over. I believe that is the fear with the MU variant. That doesn't mean that the vaccines are unhelpful, they clearly are and it seems they've proven that with lower hospitalizations and what have you. That doesn't speak much of natural immunity, but until I see all the cases of folks getting Covid the 2nd time and being hospitalized and whatever else: I'll believe natural immunity is better.
Thanks for a polite take.
 

bga1

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Scientists from the Cleveland Clinic, USA, have recently evaluated the effectiveness of coronavirus disease 2019 COVID-19) vaccination among individuals with or without a history of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection.

The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server (not peer-reviewed).


They studied 2500 unvaccinated but previously infected people. Not a single one got reinfected.
A small percentage of the vaxxed did get reinfected.
 

KillerGopherFan

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One of the reasons that the vaccines have had a shorter immune response life cycle is that they give the 2nd shot within a month after the first. That is the way that they were tested and approved for emergency authorization and that is the way that the government has too implement the vaccinations as a result.

Typically, vaccines are given with more time between doses, extending this immune response life cycle. Dr. Marty MaMary, of John’s Hopkins, personally extended the time between vaccine shots to 3 months, and therefore the immune response will last much longer. Canada was forced to increase the gap b/c of its low vaccine supply and it may have worked to their advantage.

The vaccine manufacturers didn’t have the luxury of proving or improving the immune response in a non-emergency situation and therefore had to administer the 2nd shot in testing far sooner than ideal.
 

saintpaulguy

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I got my flu shot at the fair. I'm going to go lick some escalator railings.
 


bga1

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One of the reasons that the vaccines have had a shorter immune response life cycle is that they give the 2nd shot within a month after the first. That is the way that they were tested and approved for emergency authorization and that is the way that the government has too implement the vaccinations as a result.

Typically, vaccines are given with more time between doses, extending this immune response life cycle. Dr. Marty MaMary, of John’s Hopkins, personally extended the time between vaccine shots to 3 months, and therefore the immune response will last much longer. Canada was forced to increase the gap b/c of its low vaccine supply and it may have worked to their advantage.

The vaccine manufacturers didn’t have the luxury of proving or improving the immune response in a non-emergency situation and therefore had to administer the 2nd shot in testing far sooner than ideal.
Correct answer? Shorter span sells more vaccine doses.
 



balds

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How will natural immunity fare against the variants?
An Italian study found that 0.31% of people who had covid were re-infected within a year out from their diagnosis. The study was over a time period when the Delta variant would've been in play.

In my small little world, I know 3 vaccinated people who currently have covid.

As to future variants, who can say. But at this point it's pretty clear that natural immunity is vastly superior to vaccine immunity.
 






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