MN Preps & the "U"

coolhandgopher

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Obviously, Reid Travis' decision to go to Stanford was a big kick in the teeth to the Gopher fan collective and sent a large segment of us, if not all (momentarily, at least) into the spin cycle of self-pity that fits Minnesota sports fans like a tattered old sweatshirt. Beyond Travis' decision, a larger question has been posed-Why aren't MN kids dreaming and jumping at the chance to play for the hometown Gophers? I struggle with the question myself, but increasingly understand, for a variety of reasons-a lackluster stretch of achievement since Gangelgate, the influence of AAU ball & prep schools which has had a national effect on players seeking opportunities away from home are certainly contributing factors.

I also wonder about the fishbowl of MN preps playing for the only D-1 university in the state-if you look at our top 100 recruits who have stayed at home or returned to the "U" since Sam Jacobson, it hasn't been a very rosy path; in fact, the phrase "eat your young" comes to mind. Here are those players, off the top of my head:

Joel Pryzbilla-Was positioning himself as an all-time Gopher great until he decided he wasn't going to go to class anymore, at probably the most possible time to make that decision in Gopher basketball history. Lots of negativity towards Pryz amongst the MN fan base ever since.

Michael Bauer-Great promise, career marred by injuries and inconsistency. A favorite of mine, due to hustle, his hair, and that memorable buzzer beater against Georgia, but often criticized for his failure to live up to expectations.

Rick Rickert-Very promising freshman season followed by disappointing sophomore campaign, followed by early entrance into NBA draft which fizzled into an overseas career and a punch in the chops from KG. Treatment from fans and local media from sophomore year onward was pretty brutal and he became a punchline.

Kris Humphries-Unfairly or not, blamed for the nadir of Gopher hoops under Dan Monson's tenure. Put up great stats, but if 20-10 can't get Northwestern to fall, did anyone give a $#%? Another punchline in Gopher hoops.

Shane Schilling-Major flame-out with huge self destructive tendencies.

Moe Hargrow-Gophers, Arkansas, back to Gophers-probably the poster boy for that sad period of time where MN preps left for greener pastures only to come back when things didn't work out very well. In a confusing time for Gopher hoops, Hargrow was the essence of that confusion

Brandon Smith-time with Gophers equivalent to a tire fire

Adam Boone, Larry McKenzie Jr, Ben Johnson-All left Minnesota highly acclaimed, returned to MN optimistically acclaimed, finished at the “U” with acclaim no longer part of the dialogue

Spencer Tollackson-solid four year contributor for Gophers, but oft-mocked and another who seemed to fall sort of expectations, in his case, probably unrealistic

Bryce Webster-remember when he was a Gopher? A top 100 recruit from STA?

Blake Hoffarber-very solid run with Gophers, provided one of the great shots in Gopher history (BTT tournament vs. Indiana, freshman year), generally given positive treatment by fans/media

Trevor Mbawke-took him awhile to arrive at the “U” and there was drama from the get-go, but on the court, he was a deserved fan favorite

Royce White-let’s just keep moving. . .

Rodney Williams-so much promise, so many unrealized expectations. Seemingly a very likeable, good citizen who as a freshman showed flashes of becoming an all-time Gopher great, but never came all together on a consistent basis. Absorbed a fair amount of Gopher fan frustration and negative media.

From my memory, those are the MN Preps, roughly ranked nationally in the top 100, who matriculated to the “U” at some point in the Monson and Tubby eras of basketball. Outside of Hoffarber and Mbawke, it seems a great deal of dissatisfaction surrounded their play for the Gophers, for a wide variety of reasons.

While the scrappy, underdog MN Prep to Gopher (Al Nolen, Dusty Rychart, Jeff Hagen, Brent Lawson, Jamal Abu Shamala, Zach Puchtel) has generally been well received, those who came with press clippings seemed to struggle or never match expectations under the microscope, whether from fans, media or both.

So, the last 15 years have seen a correlation between mediocre results for the Gophers basketball program and local boys not making good when donning the Gopher jersey. One wonders if much of the lukewarm response from the Big 3 has itself rooted in this recent history. Rene Pulley has garnered significant criticism from Gopher fans lately in his tepid comments towards the “U”, but I’m guessing he’s not the local basketball guy rehashing this tale of woe. And I’m pretty certain that college coaches recruiting from outside the state would have been hammering home this narrative.

The good news? I do believe the Gophers have a coach in Pitino who will change the perception and energy of the “U” back to a positive for the locals, and his hiring of Ben Johnson seems all the more savvy in this context-while Johnson’s time on the court with the Gophers wasn’t legendary, he is heading into gyms and living rooms expressing his love for the hometown university. Although hope still springs for Vaughn (seems to have the type of makeup where he’d enjoy turning the tide), it seems likely that Jarvis Johnson and Alex Illikainen are going to be the litmus test; there’s a lot to like about coach Pitino and the future certainly appears bright-will those two talented preps in the class of ‘15 jump on board and ignore/refute the tenuous relationship between top ranked MN preps and production at the “U” in our recent history?
 


Forgot Joe Coleman ESPN top 100 recruit in 2011

Yes I did, and he certainly adds to the list of local preps matriculating at the "U" who did not meet expectations, as would his brother, who I don't believe was a top 100ish recruit.
 


Good post and interesting question. I think it is a combination of factors.

1. The kids are traveling all over the country now in high school. Makes them more comfortable at an earlier age with the idea of going away.
2. When you have kids like the top three being recruited by just about everyone, there are a ton of "advisers" in their ear at an early age saying they have to go play for A or B to get to the next level, etc.
3. Social pressure. You can go to Kansas or Duke or Carolina and you are going to stay home? They must hear that stuff every day from their friends.
4. The top kids think this is a one year bridge to the NBA, when they will be drafted and most likely will have to go live someplace else anyway. Why not start a year early.
5. The big time schools have big time networks of bag men getting money to the right people to deliver the kids. It is not the coaches, because they need plausible deniability but if you think all of those kids wind up at Kentucky, Carolina or Kansas because they like the blue grass, tobacco road or Lawrence you are in fantasy land.
6. The big programs will go anywhere to recruit a kid now. They don't care where they play and they think they can get anyone they want. Even better if the perceive the competition to be weak from the home state school.

You really need to focus on the kids in the 50-100 range who are good players in their own right, expect to be in school for at least a couple of years and don't have offers from every major program in the country.

The only chance for a top 10 like kid is to have one that listens to Mom and stays home or one that has just always dreamed of playing at the U.

This problem is not unique to Minnesota, it is going on all over the place.
 


You make great points CHG. If the Gophers are considered a sub-brand of the B1G, a conference that contains Hertz (MSU, OSU), Avis (Indiana, Michigan), National (Wisky), and a lot of Enterprise teams such as the Gophers attempting to consistently elevate the brand.

RP has a great plan; recruit nationwide for 5, 4, and 3 star recruits, showing that MN is reforming the brand name by becoming a national program. The national plan reduces the perception that home grown talent must be the program's sole source of salvation. Humphries, Rickert and the other Minnesota expats came home during somewhat desperate times for the program.

Now, in contrast, Vaughn could accurately conclude that he gets what he needs by committing to MN:

1. A program on the move up not down.
2. A group of existing complimentary pieces thus individual pressure is off (Dre Hollins + Vaughn = B. Jackson and Sam Jacobsen).
3. He enters the NBA draft proud of his college choice and setting up his post NBA life here if he chooses to settle here.
4. Early returns demonstrate that the Pittino style is upbeat, exciting and capable of being explosive and dominant which enhances a recruit's ability to shine.

Whether it's Vaughn, Johnson, Illikainen and/or Coffey, reversing the getaway trend is likely to hit its stride in 2015/16. I can feel it coming.
 


TLDR. I stopped reading right after this...

Why aren't MN kids dreaming and jumping at the chance to play for the hometown Gophers?

Because here is the answer:

Gopher Big Ten Finishes:
2013 - 7th
2012 - 9th
2011 - 9th
2010 - 6th
2009 - 7th
2008 - 6th
2007 - 9th
2006 - 10th
2005 - 4th
2004 - 10th
2003 - 6th
2002 - 6th
2001 - 9th
2000 - 10th
1999 - BZZT
1998 - BZZT
1997 - BZZT
1996 - BZZT
1995 - BZZT
1994 - BZZT
1993 - 5th
1992 - 6th
1991 - 9th
1990 - 4th
1989 - 5th
1988 - 9th
1987 - 9th
1986 - 8th
1985 - 8th
1984 - 9th
1983 - 6th



That's why. Mix a few 1sts, 2nds and 3rds in there and the story will be different.
 

Who thinks Gophers will be 4th or above in the B1G by or before 2016? I'm in on that bet. It will take RP that much time.
 



TLDR. I stopped reading right after this...



Because here is the answer:

Gopher Big Ten Finishes:
2013 - 7th
2012 - 9th
2011 - 9th
2010 - 6th
2009 - 7th
2008 - 6th
2007 - 9th
2006 - 10th
2005 - 4th
2004 - 10th
2003 - 6th
2002 - 6th
2001 - 9th
2000 - 10th
1999 - BZZT
1998 - BZZT
1997 - BZZT
1996 - BZZT
1995 - BZZT
1994 - BZZT
1993 - 5th
1992 - 6th
1991 - 9th
1990 - 4th
1989 - 5th
1988 - 9th
1987 - 9th
1986 - 8th
1985 - 8th
1984 - 9th
1983 - 6th



That's why. Mix a few 1sts, 2nds and 3rds in there and the story will be different.

Because Kaupa, Wohler, Van den Einde and Holmgren crapped the bed when they had the chance in the 80s; LOL
 

One other thing I find interesting is the gene pool of our former players. We do not have any former player that have kids that grow up to play for their fathers alma mater. Mychal Thompson's son did not want to play here and McHale and Breuer did not have sons with the skill.

Our closest chance will be Coffey if he comes. His sisters did not. Other schools have legacy players. Our other closest would be Hollins I guess.
 

One other thing I find interesting is the gene pool of our former players. We do not have any former player that have kids that grow up to play for their fathers alma mater. Mychal Thompson's son did not want to play here and McHale and Breuer did not have sons with the skill.

Our closest chance will be Coffey if he comes. His sisters did not. Other schools have legacy players. Our other closest would be Hollins I guess.

We have the Coleman's! Ben and Joe transferred away; Dan transferred in!
 





It's unfortunate you stopped reading brucekaupa, because the original post by Coolhand was the type of post that makes me remember why I keep reading and responding to posts on this board.

I think the lack of team success is a large factor in how a few of those players (like Mike Bauer for example) are remembered. I don't remember much criticism of Bauer in particular, but I do remember being bewildered that a team that boasted a front line of Mike Bauer, Rick Rickert, and Jerry Holman couldn't win more Big 10 games. I believe during those players tenure was also when the first vocal detractors of Monson showed up (I was certainly late to that party). Guys like Hargrow, McKenzie, and Johnson were solid enough players to be remember fondly if they were role guys on a sweet 16 team, but none were talented enough to be "the man" or even "the sidekick" so their careers become forgettable without team success.

Another issue I see is that the sports fan culture in Minnesota is very quick to call a player great, or a problem solved, or a team improved and equally as quick to turn on that opinion. Rodney Williams was great in a lot of peoples minds as a freshman, but became a disappointment because he never developed skills to go with his athleticism. It shouldn't have just been assumed that Rodney would become a great player and maybe few accolades early from the local media and adulation from fans would have helped him? The same for a guy like Rickert, and to a lesser extent Humphries, who both got it in their heads that they were NBA players before their time...not unique to Minnesota. If Rickert would have stayed in school and added strength to go with his skill and Humphries stayed in school and added skill to go with his athleticism and strength both would have been better off and so would the Minnesota basketball program. Maybe neither would have added the necessary elements (and Humprhies has made a ton of $$$ without them), but it feels like both were insulated from criticism of their games until it was too late.

Personally, I don't understand why the "scrappy, underdog, Gopher" gets so much more love than the talented kid. I felt like a lot of people lost perspective that Rodney was a kid who could have went to any number of schools(and Royce too, but will leave him out of this), yet chose to stay home and play for the Gophers. We can be critical of the advancements of his game, while also rooting for him to achieve his potential. The "scrappy, underdogs" are fun to have around, but they were not turning down other great offers to play for Minnesota. Personally, I don't find it particularly fun to root for a team that you know has a fairly limited ceiling. That's not to say I didn't appreciate the the underdog players or wouldn't take any number of them back on the team, just that we need those guys to be playing roles and someone else doing the heavy lifting. An extreme example, but Trevor Winter probably could have had Jeff Hagen's career if he played with guys like Puchtel and Stamper instead of Courtney James and John Thomas.

I am optimistic about Pitino, but it seems like we just barely missed out on a chance to jump star his tenure with Reid Travis (and not a local kid, but also just barely missed out on a chance to jump start his tenure this year with Buckles) and hopefully he's still got a shot with Rashad Vaughn. I can't help but already start to feel like the "what might have been" is going to happen again just as it did when Tubby was set to have Trevor, Royce, Damian, Devoe, Al, Blake, Paul Carter, et al making his line changes actually seem like a good idea. The one thing with Pitino is I do feel like the out of state kids ranked anywhere from 20-75 or so are much more in play than they were in the last few recruiting classes. If he can add one of those kids a year to a top instate guy or two, I think we'll see the in state guy have more team success and be remember more fondly almost irregardless of the stats he puts up.
 

I am optimistic about Pitino, but it seems like we just barely missed out on a chance to jump star his tenure with Reid Travis (and not a local kid, but also just barely missed out on a chance to jump start his tenure this year with Buckles) and hopefully he's still got a shot with Rashad Vaughn. I can't help but already start to feel like the "what might have been" is going to happen again just as it did when Tubby was set to have Trevor, Royce, Damian, Devoe, Al, Blake, Paul Carter, et al making his line changes actually seem like a good idea. The one thing with Pitino is I do feel like the out of state kids ranked anywhere from 20-75 or so are much more in play than they were in the last few recruiting classes. If he can add one of those kids a year to a top instate guy or two, I think we'll see the in state guy have more team success and be remember more fondly almost irregardless of the stats he puts up.

I think you bring up a really interesting point EG#9-getting the "U" back to being the destination of stellar in-state kids might actually be best accomplished when an out-state blue chip, top 25-50 type of player commits here.

And of course, this is all dependent upon Pitino winning and putting a great product onto the court. Where I challenge your assertion BK is that the "U" from 1983 onward continued to harvest most of the MN preps deemed worthy of recruiting-yes, El-Amin, Aldrich, Gilbert, Horvath, Alan Anderson, Dahlman, McKenzie, Boone, and Johnson were recruited hard and went/started elsewhere, but through the trials and tribulations we still had received commitments from the last true MN blue-chippers before the Big 3 (Royce & Rodney), at the onset of the Tubby era. I really think that overall, these last few years of Tubby's regime was demoralizing for a lot of people tied into the basketball program. If a Hall of Fame coach can't win cleanly or get a practice facility at the "U", who could ever accomplish this task? Thank goodness Teague hired Pitino-while there's no guarantee he'll win or stay around for more than a few years, at the very least, I'm certain there will be a shift in energy, attitude and interest surrounding the Gophers, and the program desperately needs that, on so many levels.
 

Everything would turn around for the better if everyone would just blame me for everything.
 

Obviously, Reid Travis' decision to go to Stanford was a big kick in the teeth to the Gopher fan collective and sent a large segment of us, if not all (momentarily, at least) into the spin cycle of self-pity that fits Minnesota sports fans like a tattered old sweatshirt. Beyond Travis' decision, a larger question has been posed-Why aren't MN kids dreaming and jumping at the chance to play for the hometown Gophers? I struggle with the question myself, but increasingly understand, for a variety of reasons-a lackluster stretch of achievement since Gangelgate, the influence of AAU ball & prep schools which has had a national effect on players seeking opportunities away from home are certainly contributing factors.

I also wonder about the fishbowl of MN preps playing for the only D-1 university in the state-if you look at our top 100 recruits who have stayed at home or returned to the "U" since Sam Jacobson, it hasn't been a very rosy path; in fact, the phrase "eat your young" comes to mind. Here are those players, off the top of my head:

Joel Pryzbilla-Was positioning himself as an all-time Gopher great until he decided he wasn't going to go to class anymore, at probably the most possible time to make that decision in Gopher basketball history. Lots of negativity towards Pryz amongst the MN fan base ever since.

Michael Bauer-Great promise, career marred by injuries and inconsistency. A favorite of mine, due to hustle, his hair, and that memorable buzzer beater against Georgia, but often criticized for his failure to live up to expectations.

Rick Rickert-Very promising freshman season followed by disappointing sophomore campaign, followed by early entrance into NBA draft which fizzled into an overseas career and a punch in the chops from KG. Treatment from fans and local media from sophomore year onward was pretty brutal and he became a punchline.

Kris Humphries-Unfairly or not, blamed for the nadir of Gopher hoops under Dan Monson's tenure. Put up great stats, but if 20-10 can't get Northwestern to fall, did anyone give a $#%? Another punchline in Gopher hoops.

Shane Schilling-Major flame-out with huge self destructive tendencies.

Moe Hargrow-Gophers, Arkansas, back to Gophers-probably the poster boy for that sad period of time where MN preps left for greener pastures only to come back when things didn't work out very well. In a confusing time for Gopher hoops, Hargrow was the essence of that confusion

Brandon Smith-time with Gophers equivalent to a tire fire

Adam Boone, Larry McKenzie Jr, Ben Johnson-All left Minnesota highly acclaimed, returned to MN optimistically acclaimed, finished at the “U” with acclaim no longer part of the dialogue

Spencer Tollackson-solid four year contributor for Gophers, but oft-mocked and another who seemed to fall sort of expectations, in his case, probably unrealistic

Bryce Webster-remember when he was a Gopher? A top 100 recruit from STA?

Blake Hoffarber-very solid run with Gophers, provided one of the great shots in Gopher history (BTT tournament vs. Indiana, freshman year), generally given positive treatment by fans/media

Trevor Mbawke-took him awhile to arrive at the “U” and there was drama from the get-go, but on the court, he was a deserved fan favorite

Royce White-let’s just keep moving. . .

Rodney Williams-so much promise, so many unrealized expectations. Seemingly a very likeable, good citizen who as a freshman showed flashes of becoming an all-time Gopher great, but never came all together on a consistent basis. Absorbed a fair amount of Gopher fan frustration and negative media.

From my memory, those are the MN Preps, roughly ranked nationally in the top 100, who matriculated to the “U” at some point in the Monson and Tubby eras of basketball. Outside of Hoffarber and Mbawke, it seems a great deal of dissatisfaction surrounded their play for the Gophers, for a wide variety of reasons.

While the scrappy, underdog MN Prep to Gopher (Al Nolen, Dusty Rychart, Jeff Hagen, Brent Lawson, Jamal Abu Shamala, Zach Puchtel) has generally been well received, those who came with press clippings seemed to struggle or never match expectations under the microscope, whether from fans, media or both.

So, the last 15 years have seen a correlation between mediocre results for the Gophers basketball program and local boys not making good when donning the Gopher jersey. One wonders if much of the lukewarm response from the Big 3 has itself rooted in this recent history. Rene Pulley has garnered significant criticism from Gopher fans lately in his tepid comments towards the “U”, but I’m guessing he’s not the local basketball guy rehashing this tale of woe. And I’m pretty certain that college coaches recruiting from outside the state would have been hammering home this narrative.

The good news? I do believe the Gophers have a coach in Pitino who will change the perception and energy of the “U” back to a positive for the locals, and his hiring of Ben Johnson seems all the more savvy in this context-while Johnson’s time on the court with the Gophers wasn’t legendary, he is heading into gyms and living rooms expressing his love for the hometown university. Although hope still springs for Vaughn (seems to have the type of makeup where he’d enjoy turning the tide), it seems likely that Jarvis Johnson and Alex Illikainen are going to be the litmus test; there’s a lot to like about coach Pitino and the future certainly appears bright-will those two talented preps in the class of ‘15 jump on board and ignore/refute the tenuous relationship between top ranked MN preps and production at the “U” in our recent history?

Good take. I will take issue on one thing only and its a pet peeve of mine. Rick Rickert did not have a disappointing sophmore season. He averaged 16 pts a game, about 6 board and was top ten in blocks, plus he was ALL BIG TEN first team. Sure, he shouldn't have left early but he made a nice career for himself. Rickert was on a disappointing team, but that was Monson's fault for not supplying any good guard play. Match Rickert and Holman with this years frontcourt? Wow.
 

One of the best threads in a long time thanks to the OP and some thoughtful responses. I think you have to look at the coaches, Monson and Tubby. Was happy when both were hired and was happy when both were let go. Monson's team just quit on him, partly I think, because of revolving door with players and pretty sure he was quoted as saying family responsibilities got in the way of his coaching responsibilities. Tubby just seemed tired the last couple of years, and the players seemed tense and not having much fun. You see the video of him dancing after beating Wisconsin and then they come out and go through the motions for a couple of games.

Obviously, a lot of other factors also. Many individual reasons why players didn't meet our expectations, and I doubt very many of them are even that known to the "Big Three". Bruce probably nailed it better than anyone. Look at the record. With AAU exposure kids can see we're not a glamour spot. Too bad because a local kid could become the male version of Whalen in this town.
 

Excellent original post, coolhand.

I'm with GVBadger on a lot of this. Basically the world is a different place than it used to be, and it's never going back. Kids are more worldly than they were in the past, when a guy like Kevin McHale from a small town in northern Minnesota would find the Twin Cities as far away and as exciting as he'd ever want to venture as a young adult. If McHale graduated today he'd be traveling around the country as a prep to camps and tournaments, and the U would just be one of a number of destinations on a huge menu of possibilities to consider. That's seen as a negative reflection on the U, but it's really just the way of the modern world.

EG#9's anxiety about whether the U is ever going to get beyond "what might of been" is something everyone feels to a certain extent, whether we want to admit it or not. Even when we have had success competing and recruiting, we didn't (1997, Royce White). It's easy to feel snakebitten. But as I've said before, hopelessness is ultimately illogical and irrational - and lazy.
 

I think you have to look at the culture of todays kids as well.

Today's kids are so much more entitled than they were years ago (I know based upon those that come through the hiring pool, and based upon the emails I read from parents that are sent to my teacher wife, as I'm not old enough to actually have kids yet) and feel they can "do better" than any local in state school. The draw of the 1000s of twitter followers and being a legend somewhere else has soo much more allure with social media than it did even 5 years ago. Why would a top instate recruit stay in-state when he could go elsewhere and prove he's better than the local area.

Couple that along with all the other topics we've discussed, and no wonder the "local kid" staying home is the anomaly and is celebrated rather than the out of state team snagging a recruit from the home team.

I'll finish with saying, I don't think we are alone in this issue, it may just be amplified with the frustrations we experienced with our last class along with the recent influx of instate talent that has brought our awareness to a heightened level. I'd be surprised if Pitino ever gets to a point where he can keep all of the blue chippers home, that's why kid's become blue chippers so they can get out of their hometown.

Last year's top recruits
Parker : Didn't stay at Illinois or any other local college, he went to Duke
Randal : Left a myriad of "it" teams from the state of Texas to go to Kansas
Gordon : Numerous California teams with similar profiles to the UofM, chose Arizona
Harrison Twins : Left Texas for Kentucky
James Young : Spurred Coach Izzo to go play for Slick Cal


The first recruit in ESPN top 100 to "stay home" is #10 and that was to play at Florida, who, I think we would all agree, has a much higher profile than we do today.

As you scroll down the list of ESPN Top 100, there are certainly some success stories of the smaller school landing the local stud, but overwhelmingly these kids are getting pulled by the glamor of either the "in" school, or the blue bloods, and I don't know that that happens to us any more frequently than anyone else without doing research.
 

I really think you have to look at the kid when you bring up the hometown hero issue. Being the home town hero brings a lot of pressure associated with it and some kids have a hard time dealing with the pressure. The expectations and pressure in being a savior becomes a lot for a kid 18-23 years old. Plus if he does not live up to those expectations he will possibly get mocked for it by the press and fan base.

I lived in Madison for ten years after college and met and knew Sam Okey through friends of mine. I would not say we were friends but we hung out in the group when we hit the bars. My friends grew up in the same area where he grew up. The pressure he endured at wisconsin was huge and you could tell that it bothered him a lot. The kid drank a ton to cope and had his own personal rebellion because the pressure became a lot to handle. Last I heard he runs a landscaping business around Madison and will play ball from time to time but really keeps a low profile.

I know that it is easy to say from the outside that it would be an honor to be the hometown hero, but it really is a double edged sword.
 




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