MN dismal v. WI success...please help me understand!

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Winston

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I truly hate the Badgers with all my being. Definitely more than any other squad. Plus, I think most people in the 25-40 year old bracket feel the same. WAY too many of them locally... they're obnoxious... and NOTHING used to tick me off more than a MN student rooting for the Gophs at every game, EXCEPT v. Wisconsin. Should be immediately expelled. Plus, they have the 2 most annoying big revenue sports coaches in the NCAA at the same school. Theire success in both sports over the last 15 years makes me want to puke.

An old-timer like Sid doesn't seem to get the hatred- recall his column during the football coaching search where he expressed great suprise at the hate mail he received for his man-love for Paul Chryst and WI coaches in general.

Fact of the matter is, Iowa doesn't really bug me (it's more in fun/jest, whereas I have a true hatred for WI) and I've always enjoyed road trips down to Iowa City.

RANT OVER - with that said and recognized, how in heck's name has Wisconsin been so good at football and basketball?? I DEMAND ANSWERS. Don;'t just respond with D. Shalala either - what the heck did she specifically do besides turn a blind eye to Alvarez' ramptant cheating?
 

Money, investment, donors, and knowing where their bread is buttered. We don't do many of these particularly well with the recent exception of TCF.
 

I think they were a little quicker to react to the importance of having above average results from their revenue producing sports (their programs are good not great) and made the financial investment necessary to gain those results with a specific plan. They invested in their stadiums but unlike the gophers didn't do it foolishly. I'll state the Kohl center as an example, they have one venue that has a practice facility attached, that houses 4 major sports(I don't know if other sports host games their or not) in MBB, WBB, MIH and WIH. During that same time frame the U has used 4 different venues (Williams, Mariucci, Ridder and Pavilion). I understand that all four of these venues were not built around the same time as the kohl center however in hindsight would it not have been better to switch the sports played at the pavilion to Williams, then instead of building Ridder renovate the Pavilion into an updated practice facility and sink any remaining dollars into the budgets of revenue producing sports?

I would say that UW has been slightly ahead of the curve in the AD department for what is going on in the college sports landscape while the U has been behind the curve.

Even more importantly I would say that UW got lucky. They were lucky that Alvarez turned out to be an almost legendary coach. Lucky that Bo Ryan and Brett Bielema have been able to sustain the relative success that their predecessors had achieved.
 

It's hard to avoid the feeling that at least some of this is cultural. Jerry Kill was on the radio last night, and he was asked whether losing gets ingrained after a while. Kill was quick to answer that, yes, you have to change the culture.

I've been around enough to know that culture is a huge, huge deal. And it's not easy to define or remedy, or else everyone would be doing it. When you're in that rut, good luck getting out.
 



I think this might explain it as much as anything

Joseph - Taylor
 

For starter can we assume its because they hired better football and basketball coaches who were able to recruit better athletes.
 

Wisconsin has the same academic standards Minnesota has. However, they implement it differently which keeps more blue-chip kids in school.
Also, they do not try to be all things to all people and focus on the revenue producing sports. Their long term strategic objective is to be able to compete with florida and OSU consistently in the top tier sports. Wisconsin recognizes that if the revenue producing sports are successful, usually the others will follow. The other thing Shalala did was to hire quality coaches and a solid AD. They also made a financial and verbal commitment to the success of the Athletic Department which was a huge culture shift for them. As I see it, Wisconsin is at least 10 years ahead of Minnesota in having a consistently competitive athletic program.
 

I don't follow football close enough to speak to that but basketball comes down to an upgrade in facilities and hiring the right coaches. Dick Bennett and Bo Ryan are both guys who fit the Badgers. They were both mature coaches when they got to the UW with deep Wisconsin roots. They are coaches first, recruiters 2nd which is important at Wisconsin. They can win with the sort of players you can get consistently. There just isn't the ready talent available in-state like there is in Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, or Illinois. Both guys provided stability as well. A younger, flashier guy who puts up the first three years Bo did would probably be off to a "bigger" job.

The Kohl Center was huge. I love the Field House, but the place is old and dumpy and an anchor on recruiting.
 



Minnesota needs some more D1 competition in this state. Wisconsin has a few D1 Schools, Marquette for example that makes them have to compete.
I for one wish the U of M had some competition for D1 Sports in Football and Basketball.

I think that iron sharpens Iron.
 

Some thie completely ridiculous comments above aside, there some very good explanations.

1. Hired Great Coaches
- Barry Alvarez is a hall of fame coach. Starts with that. Minnesota's hires that last 20+ years have been very poor. Bo Ryan certainly as well
- Barry had a plan. Lock down the state borders, which he did with very few exceptions. Develop a style that Wisconsin could win with. He new they would rarely get the elite skill player, but they could recruit lineman as well as anyone, which the have for the last 20 years. They've stayed true to who there are (physical), though Chryst has expanded the playbook in recent years.
- They've developed one of the best walk-on programs in the country. Second probably only to Nebraska. Makes sense in a state like Wisconsin, Iowa or Minnesota. Think about all the walk-on kids that have turned into good and sometimes great players.
- They've made significant improvements in facilities. Went from one of the worst BBall gyms to one of the best with the Kohl Center. Practice facilities, major Camp Randall Renovation and most recently approved a 80 million dollar state of the art Athletic Performance Center and will triple the size of the FB lockerroom.

The new stadium was a huge disadvantage for us for years, everyone knows that. It's been resolved, now we need to get lucky with a coaching hire and he's got to lock down the borders.

I agree Wisconsin is way ahead at this point, but that doesn't mean we can't close the gap. Iowa is way ahead as well..
 

millions2spare said:
Minnesota needs some more D1 competition in this state. Wisconsin has a few D1 Schools, Marquette for example that makes them have to compete.
I for one wish the U of M had some competition for D1 Sports in Football and Basketball.

I think that iron sharpens Iron.
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Not sure how that helps. Wisconsin loses recruits to Marquette and Marquette loses recruits to Wisconsin. How is that helpful? Minnesota is sharpened or at least should be because they have to compete with Wisconsin and other schools. Just not sure how having an instate Division 1 school is really helpful.

However this is not the only statement I disagree with from you in this thread. "Wisconsin has the same academic standards Minnesota has. However, they implement it differently which keeps more blue-chip kids in school. " Do you have some stats to back this up? I have never heard Minnesota has higher standards for athletes than Wisconsin does.
 

Winston said:
I truly hate the Badgers with all my being. Definitely more than any other squad. Plus, I think most people in the 25-40 year old bracket f
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Comments like this make me sick. Honestly. You sound like an uneducated, immature Packer fan talking about the Vikings. What have the Badgers ever done to you personally? Nothing...

If anything, you should respect the Badgers and hope your favorite team strives to someday attain their level of success.

There is nothing wrong with rooting for your favorite team, but there is something wrong with rooting so strongly against your opponent that you throw out such strong statements like: "I truly hate the Badgers with all my being." With all your being!?!?!? Wow...

I'm willing to bet you are under the age of 22.
 



My point is in the implementation of the academic standards and process. Wisconsin actually does not let in as many kids with below 20 ACT scores as Minnesota. Minnesota has to take a chance on some of these kids in order to bring in quality athletes that have the potential to compete. However, our lack of a General College and how the U chooses to implement student councilors and sessions affects these kids ability to stay in school and remain eligible.

Also, there is still fear amongst the Admin regarding the Jan Gaglehoff Era. I have been told that many of these academic councilors still have an arms length relationship to some of the students they are paid to help. This is not the same at other Big ten and top notch schools.

Regrading competition, I wish we had another D1 program in the State. That way if the U of M is constantly in the dumps, there would be another Minnesota option to root for. I know it is counter intuitive, but Iron does Sharpen Iron and this University has lived in a world of mediocrity with no accountability for results and performance for way too long.
 


millions2spare said:
Wisconsin has a few D1 Schools, Marquette for example that makes them have to compete.
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That makes no sense. As has already been stated on this thread, the pool of players in any given area is limited. How does multiple Division I opportunities make the flagship state school better?

Also, how does your (terrible) reasoning explain football? Madison is the only Division I-A school in the state.
 

True about football....however, in Basketball there are a number of D1 schools in Wisconsin....Also, another D1 school in this state would allow Minnesota to keep some more kids HOME verses going to other locations such as BC, KSU, or Gonzaga. It is counter intuitive I know to you U of M Lefties, but competition is a good thing and forces businesses or teams to either adapt or become irrelevant. The Gophers have been mostly irrelevant for a long time......I am the only guy on this board who is sick and tired of this mediocrity and would welcome a honest look at the hard facts about 'GOLDEN Gopher" athletics and the stench that surrounds it. Then, take the necessary steps to get us back to prominence.
 

millions2spare said:
Also, another D1 school in this state would allow Minnesota to keep some more kids HOME verses going to other locations such as BC, KSU, or Gonzaga.
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Please explain how this competing hypothetical Division 1 school in Minnesota and their hypothetical ability to keep more Minnesota kids home would help the University of Minnesota in any way. Thanks in advance!

Also, you do not in any way understand how business and competition work if you think that adding more competitors for a limited and finite pool of resources helps any of the current competitors in that marketplace.
 

MaroonGopher said:
Comments like this make me sick. Honestly. You sound like an uneducated, immature Packer fan talking about the Vikings. What have the Badgers ever done to you personally? Nothing...

If anything, you should respect the Badgers and hope your favorite team strives to someday attain their level of success.

There is nothing wrong with rooting for your favorite team, but there is something wrong with rooting so strongly against your opponent that you throw out such strong statements like: "I truly hate the Badgers with all my being." With all your being!?!?!? Wow...

I'm willing to bet you are under the age of 22.
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No, there really isn't anything wrong with that.
 

Great thread

I have say that I am impressed with what WI has been able to to with their athletics. Now that also means I am jealous.:) There are a few things the gophers need to do, in my eyes, that some have been addressed here and some haven't.

1) The gophers need to have a higher level of success in football. Plain and simple.
2) The gophers athletic department needs to cut some non-revenue sports. I know that is Maturi's badge of honor in keeping 25 sports afloat, but we need to trim some fat.
3) We need a couple of big time donors to step up. Unfortunately that won't happen until we win. With success comes money in D-1 athletics.

The other thing that I think a lot of people think as well is that our AD runs the department poorly. A great example that was posted on here the other day was the tialgating fees. The way the U did it was charge a boat load of money up front and those who can pay will. The idea offered by that person was to charge a smaller amount of money and pack the lots. It is no fun to have half empty lots in every single one. This was a great idea! Simple ideas seem to be lacking with our AD and I really think he is the person that is keeping most of our programs from becoming great.
 

Competition is what drives innovation and excellence. The Minnesota masses have no other options to root for and become emotionally involved with when it comes to major college sports. Why do you think there is so much Apathy regarding Gopher Athletics? Without any outside influence, this "losing" culture is going to continue to permeate the program. It will not matter who the AD is or the Football coach is. Unless this program is shaken from the foundations, we should not expect any more than we currently get.

Blue Chipper Athletes love to compete and want to play for the best teams they can. If the U of M had to really fight for the Public's affection for D1 College athletics, then I would say the negative and "loserville" culture at the U of M would have to change. There is NO reason for the U of M to do anything different than continue the same losing formula it has employed for the past 50 years. That formula includes hire a New coach, hire a new AD, pooof the same results over and over again.

Maybe with a new president and an injection of new blood will be the catalyst needed to fundamentally and dynamically shift this department. Jerry Kill even says this Department has a history and a culture of losing. I doubt one man can change the culture. It will take a large effort that includes the Presidents office, board or Regents, and an Athletic director who has the leadership acumen to "get it done". Jerry Kill and Tubby Smith cannot do it alone. I give Maturi credit for bringing in a Big named Coach like Tubby. Why is it that Tubby can win every other place than in Minnesota?

We need a dynamic and cultural shift to make Gopher sports relevant again.
 

Blah, blah, blah. TL;DR. Answer the question, please.

Let's say, for our hypothetical, that Winona St. is Division I. They convince guys like Troy Bell, Bryce Webster, Noah Dahlman, etc., etc. to stay in-state and play for them.

HOW ON EARTH DOES THAT HELP THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA GOLDEN GOPHERS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM???

And....go.
 

In your scenario, Winona State would be a competitive Minnesota option to root for. Tpo repeat, a competitive Minnesota option. (By the way, that team you described would have been pretty good) It would then be up to the U of M to make the necessary changes to their offering to the public better in order to compete for my time ,emotion, and dollars. Right now, the only other option for me is to 1) live with what we have, 2) become apathetic, 3) become a badger fan, or 4) focus on pro sports. It would be totally up to the U to adapt and break their cycle of losing....it is basic free market and supply side economics...
 

You're right. The U has no competition. It's not like they compete with the Vikings, Wild, Twins, Timberwolves, Lynx, etc., etc. Oh wait, whoops.

Thank you for the economics lesson, Milt Friedman.
 

lol....for Division 1 sports The gophers are all we have.....why do you think there is soo much Apathy for Gopher Sports? Why do you think people Love the Vikings.....Come on,face it, wouldn't it be great to have a Minnesota D1 team to root for? ..........This current regime cannot get it done. Even with a Top Named Coach....you are a smart guy, you know this to be true.........
 

millions2spare said:
lol....for Division 1 sports The gophers are all we have.....why do you think there is soo much Apathy for Gopher Sports?
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Because in the sports that the average fan cares about, the Gophers have sucked for decades? I don't need to read Adam Smith to figure that one out.

millions2spare said:
Why do you think people Love the Vikings
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Because the NFL is intensely popular, and the illusion of competitiveness (whether real or imagined) is omnipresent for every team? The football and men's basketball Gophers haven't had the illusion of competitiveness for anything substantial in at least two decades (much longer in football). Again, quite simple stuff.

millions2spare said:
Come on,face it, wouldn't it be great to have a Minnesota D1 team to root for?
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I already have one, and I will die maroon-and-gold. What the hell would I want another for? They would be my enemy, not my friend. I sure as hell wouldn't "root" for them under any circumstances whatsoever.

millions2spare said:
This current regime cannot get it done.
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Maturi will retire soon enough. Oh, then, "resident of Culver City", what will you have to nonsensically complain and write excessively verbose message board treatises about?
 


Winston, I have to agree with your hatred of Wisconsin 100%. Growing up 20 miles from Madison I was surrounded by Badger fans at all times. However, I was lucky enough to be there when they were absolutely terrible in both football and basketball, leading to far fewer "die-hard" fans than there are today. I remember going to Camp Randall with a mere 30,000 fans (so don't believe any Badger fans when they say they have the best fans in the world - no one was there before they started winning)

Well, along came Barry Alvarez (and dismiss it if you like, but it was Shalala's hire and deeper commitment to athletics that brought him there). He struggled early, but then won the Rose Bowl. That is all Badger fans needed to become absolutely mental about their team. All games were already sellouts that year, but that Rose Bowl ramped up donations and sellouts have occurred pretty much every year since. When you're selling out a 75-80,000 seat stadium 7 games a year it allows to up grade your facilities.

That leads to the Kohl Center, which replaced the basement-like facility of the Field House. They start getting better recruits under Dick Bennett, make a ridiculously retarded trip to the Final Four, then hire an absolutely perfect head coach for their recruiting base in Bo Ryan. And the rest is history.

Money equals success these days.
 

good post Foggie.....any ideas on how Minnesota can duplicate? Also, there were a lot of Al McGuire fans living in Madison in the 70's and 80's!
 

millions2spare said:
good post Foggie.....any ideas on how Minnesota can duplicate? Also, there were a lot of Al McGuire fans living in Madison in the 70's and 80's!
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Hope that Kill and Smith can turn their programs around. The have made the investment in football (TCF). Kill just needs to build the program up similar to Mason but then not crap the bed when presented with the opportunity to have a break through season. T. Smith needs to find a point guard and he'll be on his way.
 

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