Minnesota's Offensive Fouling

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MillionMoves

MillionMoves

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All the charging fouls in college basketball make the game hard to watch and Minnesota seems especially prone to them. Of the 20 fouls committed by the Gophers last night, 9 of them were offensive fouls (Rodney Williams 3, Andre Hollins 2, Julian Welch 2, Chip Armelin 1, and Austin Hollins 1). Stanford had 3 offensive fouls out of their total of 18 (includes a technical foul).

I'm certainly not blaming the referees entirely -- the Gophers need to make better decisions driving the ball -- but I would like to see the the mini-circle extended to match the pro circle and the college refs need to be more observant of movement by the defensive player. Also they need to remember the defensive player must be set before the offensive player leaves his feet, not just at the point of contact.
 

MillionMoves said:
Of the 20 fouls committed by the Gophers last night, 9 of them were offensive fouls.
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That also helps explain some of the Gopher turnover woes. Offensive fouls count as turnovers in the NCAA. So, assuming your number of 9 offensive fouls is correct, then 9 of the 20+ turnovers last night were the result of offensive fouls.
 

tjgopher said:
That also helps explain some of the Gopher turnover woes. Offensive fouls count as turnovers in the NCAA. So, assuming your number of 9 offensive fouls is correct, then 9 of the 20+ turnovers last night were the result of offensive fouls.
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So 11 of the turnovers were not offensive fouls. That's not bad.
 

Next time please separate charges from moving screens, illegal screens, holds, over-the backs, etc. Not all offensive fouls are the same.
 

A constant belief I see among basketball fans is the belief that "defender moving feet" == "blocking foul". That is absolutely not true.

Charge is about rights to a position.

Example 1: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is standing still and gets run over. Outcome: Charge (everyone agrees on this one)
Example 2: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender leaps in front of him. Outcome: Blocking foul (everyone agrees on this one)
Example 3: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is on him and backpedaling. The point guard accelerates and runs right over the defender. Outcome: Charge.

Most fans believe #3 is a blocking foul.
 


brucekaupa said:
A constant belief I see among basketball fans is the belief that "defender moving feet" == "blocking foul". That is absolutely not true.

Charge is about rights to a position.

Example 1: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is standing still and gets run over. Outcome: Charge (everyone agrees on this one)
Example 2: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender leaps in front of him. Outcome: Blocking foul (everyone agrees on this one)
Example 3: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is on him and backpedaling. The point guard accelerates and runs right over the defender. Outcome: Charge.

Most fans believe #3 is a blocking foul.
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You could make this scenario a little more clear where the offensive player is just barreling through the lane and runs a defender over. Offensive player is out of control so it's a foul. That's why it's called "Player Control Foul" (at least in HS) to clarify for a situation like this.
 

zambam said:
You could make this scenario a little more clear where the offensive player is just barreling through the lane and runs a defender over. Offensive player is out of control so it's a foul. That's why it's called "Player Control Foul" (at least in HS) to clarify for a situation like this.
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Actually, it is called a "Player Control Foul" because the foul is called on the player controlling the ball. It is a "Player Control Foul" whether the player who charged is under control or out of control, as long as he is controlling the ball.
 

[Example 3: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is on him and backpedaling. The point guard accelerates and runs right over the defender. Outcome: Charge.

Most fans believe #3 is a blocking foul.[/QUOTE]

Most of these calls are terrible calls. I do not understand why the officials have started to like calling charges so often. A few years ago you would see one or two charge calls at most in the bulk of the games. Now you see double digit charge calls, which is not why I watch basketball. The slowed down DVR replay shows how bad these calls almost always are. These plays are dangerous and would probably cause a fight in a pickup game.

-If you slow down the play, or get the overhead view you will see the defenders moving forward into the driving players often.

-You will often also see the the defenders moving their upper torso to the side or forward into the driving player to make sure there is contact.

-On many of these charges you will see the defender set up to take a charge, notice the the driving player did not go where they expected, so they quickly slide under or into the the driver and then fall down.

I saw a player drive the hole, stop and pull up for a jump shot, then fell on the defender who ran under him. Charge call

None of these things should be charges unless the offensive player extends his arm and pushes.

Often when a player like Rodney is bumped, or undercut when driving the officials will only call a blocking foul if the shot does not go in, but then they will call the charge on the other side almost every time.

Nine charging calls against one team in one game is absurd. The officials are calling the game very differrently than they did even five years ago and I do not like it one bit. We will see an adjustment next year.
 

tjgopher said:
Actually, it is called a "Player Control Foul" because the foul is called on the player controlling the ball. It is a "Player Control Foul" whether the player who charged is under control or out of control, as long as he is controlling the ball.
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Really? I remember in HS we had to watch a video from MSHSL about rule changes and one of them was about Player Control Foul. They said in the video that is called that to say that if the offensive player is out of control, it is a foul on the offensive player. Maybe they just did that to simplify things?
 



the real problem is with teams like Wisconsin and Stanford who will clutch, grab and push the entire possession, only to flop once the offensive player makes the slightest move towards the basket. Make flopping a technical and start calling the handchecks and player control fouls. Stop allowing players to back into somebody whether on a post move or while boxing out. It's amazing what refs will allow a player to do as long as they're using their butt and not their hands.
 

One thing I always laugh about in basketball is how you can completely demolish a guy on a screen, and it is 100% legal. But, the slightest touch can be a foul.
 

The reality is that no matter what is a foul or not a foul...if the game was called consistently, the players can adjust. The biggest problem is inconsistent calls from minute to minute and inconsistent calls among crews from ref to ref.

The NIT refs were so bad that eventually they started calling fouls on each other.
 

brucekaupa said:
Example 3: Point guard is bringing the ball up the floor. The defender is on him and backpedaling. The point guard accelerates and runs right over the defender. Outcome: Charge.

Most fans believe #3 is a blocking foul.
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Most fans believe that scenario #3 is a blocking foul. However, this is a charge every day of the week. So long as the defender has established his legal guarding position, he can move in any direction (L, R, forwards, backwards, up, and down) so long as he maintains it. Legal guarding position is when the defender is squared up facing the ballhandler. Once the defender gets turned, or the ballhandler gets past the defender, the defender is no longer in legal guarding position. The defender DOES NOT, repeat, DOES NOT have to have his feet set to draw a charge.

That's why I don't like the charge arc under the basket. It's a cheap bailout for refs who are watching the ball instead of watching the defenders in their primary area. If the refs stay home and are paying attention to where the defenders are and what they're doing, a lot of the gray block/charges get straightened away.

Also, if the ballhandler either puts his shoulder down or throws a stiff-arm with the free hand, the likelihood of getting called for a charge is much higher.
 



I don't mind the charge calls when attacking the basket. It's being aggressive. The TOs that drive me crazy are the careless passes around the perimeter.
 

I'd be interested to find out what percentage of fouls called in a game are charges now compared to 5-10 years ago. I've got to believe its a lot higher. Flopping should be a technical foul, without a doubt.

 

GophersInIowa said:
I'd be interested to find out what percentage of fouls called in a game are charges now compared to 5-10 years ago. I've got to believe its a lot higher. Flopping should be a technical foul, without a doubt.
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Flopping IS a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. However, good luck getting anyone to call it at the D1 college level.

Couple of years ago, I had a JV game where both teams were flopping early and often. First, I warned both teams that their flops weren't working, and if they wanted a charge they had to stay up and take the hit. Didn't work. Second, we started to call the flops as blocks resulting in and-1s. Still didn't work. They didn't quit flopping until we informed the players that the next flop would result in a T for unsportsmanlike conduct.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I'd be interested to find out what percentage of fouls called in a game are charges now compared to 5-10 years ago. I've got to believe its a lot higher. Flopping should be a technical foul, without a doubt.

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flopping is already a common foul.
 


Someone is going to get hurt with teams trying to draw charges. Rodney is just past midcourt dribbling and running with the Stanford guard. The Stanford guard suddenly does a twisting jump stop right in front of Rodney. Dangerous blocking foul. Someone is going to get hurt.
 

Charge calls are definitely judgement calls. There have been more charges called since that circle has come into play. The Law of Verticality is never called right. IF the defensive player jumps straight up, with hands straight up, and the offensive player jumps into him, that is supposed to be a charge. It is allows called a block.

We can complain about calls or we can teach our players that just because you beat your man at the 3 pt line dont expect to get all the way to the rim. How about stopping at 8 feet and shooting the bunny in off the board. How about a jump stop?
 

zambam said:
Really? I remember in HS we had to watch a video from MSHSL about rule changes and one of them was about Player Control Foul. They said in the video that is called that to say that if the offensive player is out of control, it is a foul on the offensive player. Maybe they just did that to simplify things?
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No. It is a "player control foul" because the offensive player is controlling the ball. It has nothing to do with the offensive player's body control, or lack thereof.

There is also the concept of a "team control foul" - for example, an offensive player setting an illegal screen (his team controls the ball, but the fouling player does not control the ball).
 

Facts34 said:
No. It is a "player control foul" because the offensive player is controlling the ball. It has nothing to do with the offensive player's body control, or lack thereof.

There is also the concept of a "team control foul" - for example, an offensive player setting an illegal screen (his team controls the ball, but the fouling player does not control the ball).
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Makes sense.
 

"We can complain about calls or we can teach our players that just because you beat your man at the 3 pt line dont expect to get all the way to the rim. How about stopping at 8 feet and shooting the bunny in off the board. How about a jump stop? "

Because a jump shot is not highlight reel material and won't get you on SportsCenter. It will only get your team a boring 2 points.
 

I agree, but it seems like we charge a lot compared to other teams I watch.
 


big10guy said:
"We can complain about calls or we can teach our players that just because you beat your man at the 3 pt line dont expect to get all the way to the rim. How about stopping at 8 feet and shooting the bunny in off the board. How about a jump stop? "

Because a jump shot is not highlight reel material and won't get you on SportsCenter. It will only get your team a boring 2 points.
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That and it's about the lowest percentage shot you can take. If you can get in for a layup or dunk, you have a greater chance of making that shot and scoring points for your team. If you can hit the jump shot take it, but it's not as likely to go in as a layup or dunk.
 

I say take the jump shot most of the time.

Cayman said:
That and it's about the lowest percentage shot you can take. If you can get in for a layup or dunk, you have a greater chance of making that shot and scoring points for your team. If you can hit the jump shot take it, but it's not as likely to go in as a layup or dunk.
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Almost every game I watched during the tournament one of the star players beats his man goes hard to the basket, and another defender is waiting just outside that circle. Granted occassionally that player is moving and the refs need to watch that. But usually most offensive players just barrell down that guy and get a charge. Usually this was early in the first half so game changers like rodney have to sit the rest of the half, as they usually already have 1 foul. Same in the second half. So even if a jump shot from 8 feet is less likely to go in, isn't it better than risking the offensive foul and a turnover?? I mean use discretion, but it seems like so few players have anything else in the arsenal once they beat their man on the perimeter?
 

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