Mid-Major

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grunkiejr

grunkiejr

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I thought I would start a thread to discuss the label "Mid-major" and how it is applied. Recently I have seen the term applied to NDSU and members of its conference and I have to say that I think that this is inappropriate.

Before we define what is a mid-major we need to define the classes of teams. The "Major" conferences are generally considered to be schools from the six football BCS conferences (ACC, Big East, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac 10, SEC). Any team that doesn't fit in to those conferences would seemingly be in another class. By the fact that there is the term "mid" within the label "Mid-Major" there most also be a "Low Major." So the question is what is the difference between a Low Major and Mid-Major team.

To answer the question of Low Major and Mid Major I consulted my friend Wikipedia which actually has a good discussion of the subject.

The term "mid-major" is sometimes used to describe all of the other 25 conferences not normally considered to be a major conference. Most of the time, the term is specifically applied to only the non-major conferences that consistently produce quality teams. Often the definition of a basketball mid-major will be of a conference that can put at least one at-large bid in the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament as well as have a team or teams advance fairly regularly, while not garnering the attention and television dollars of a major conference. The conferences most likely to be considered a mid-major include:

Atlantic 10 Conference (A-10)
Big West Conference
Colonial Athletic Association (CAA)
Conference USA (C-USA)
Horizon League
Mid-American Conference (MAC)
Missouri Valley Conference (MVC)
Mountain West Conference (MWC)
West Coast Conference (WCC)
Western Athletic Conference (WAC)
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I agree with this definition and noticeably missing from the list is the Summit League.

Can we therefore stop calling NDSU a mid-major? They are a low major and until members of the Summit League are able to earn at large berths to the NCAA tournament we should consider the league to be Low Major.
 

grunkiejr said:
I thought I would start a thread to discuss the label "Mid-major" and how it is applied. Recently I have seen the term applied to NDSU and members of its conference and I have to say that I think that this is inappropriate.

Before we define what is a mid-major we need to define the classes of teams. The "Major" conferences are generally considered to be schools from the six football BCS conferences (ACC, Big East, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac 10, SEC). Any team that doesn't fit in to those conferences would seemingly be in another class. By the fact that there is the term "mid" within the label "Mid-Major" there most also be a "Low Major." So the question is what is the difference between a Low Major and Mid-Major team.

To answer the question of Low Major and Mid Major I consulted my friend Wikipedia which actually has a good discussion of the subject.



I agree with this definition and noticeably missing from the list is the Summit League.

Can we therefore stop calling NDSU a mid-major? They are a low major and until members of the Summit League are able to earn at large berths to the NCAA tournament we should consider the league to be Low Major.
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Uh oh. Now you've done it. Lakes enters with Caps Lock blazing in 3...2...1... :D

FWIW I agree.
 

I think you hit it grunkiejr. If NDSU can move up to the MVC someday, then they'd be a solid mid major. Until then, they are in the same boat as conferences such as the Patriot League, SWAC, Sun Belt, Big Sky, etc. And before Lakes or anyone else begins to dispute that ranking, they should keep in mind that those conferences can all claim NCAA wins in recent years (Bucknell, NE Louisiana, Western Kentucky, Weber St. off the top of my head) which the Summit League cannot claim as of yet.
 

To keep from upsetting lakesbison (we'd hate to hurt his feelings), instead of "Low-Major" for NDSU and the Summit League, and similar Leagues, Let's give them a new 3rd category called Mid-Minors.
 

NDSU is ranked 11th in the Mid-Major Poll, Ben Woodside is a Collegehoopsnet Mid-Major All-American and a Collegeinsider Mid-Major All-American.

In my opinion the term low-major is inappropriate, there is nothing low-major about NDSU. I don't really care what league we play in, the school's athletic budget and enrollment is in the middle of the DI.
 



GoAUpher said:
Except for the league it plays in, which was the point of Grunkie's post.
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Says who? Wikipedia? Give me a link to a real website and I might agree.

I consulted midmajority.com and that site says otherwise.

http://www.midmajority.com/2008/01/the-red-line.php#

Collegeinsider.com
NOTE: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Horizon, Independents, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit League, Sun Belt, West Coast.
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Do you want to keep on going because I can find a lot of NDSU and Summit League references used with the term Mid-Major.
 

FargoBison said:
Says who? Wikipedia? Give me a link to a real website and I might agree.

I consulted midmajority.com and that site says otherwise.

http://www.midmajority.com/2008/01/the-red-line.php#

Collegeinsider.com


Do you want to keep on going because I can find a lot of NDSU and Summit League references used with the term Mid-Major.
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Honestly, you're supporting the main point that Grunkie makes. He wasn't saying that no one considered the Summit to be mid-major. Obviously media outlets from the 4-Letter on down call all non-BCS/Conf USA conferences mid-major. Grunkie was suggesting that this current terminology/paradigm is flawed.

The link you posted makes it clear that there are other opinions. MidMajority's is that the difference is based on money. I'll agree that this makes for an easier distinction but one that is probably too inclusive. Wrapping all the "smaller" schools into the title of mid-major makes more sense to me for football. In FB, the number of non-BCS conferences is fewer and where there is also 1-AA to fill in the gaps but less so in MBB where there are 300+ teams and 32 conferences.

I think the reason that everyone and their brother is a mid-major in MBB is because it is an easy distinction and it allows for better coverage of the remaining non-BCS/Conf USA schools by media/blogs/etc. While I don't think that it makes sense to group conferences that are drastically different in terms of quality of play together, I understand the idea behind it. But I don't see why/how one bid leagues are placed on the same level as consistent multi-bid mid-major conferences. If you're only placing your tourney champion into the Dance, you aren't a true mid-major conference. NDSU could very well become the Memphis of the Summit league. A good team that dominates a weaker league (but b/c they are good, not just because the league is weak).

I also don't think ragging on the Summit league has to translate into ragging on NDSU. I think NDSU has a nice thing going. Having grown up going to Bison FB and BB games I'm excited to see NDSU continue to succeed. But the Summit is a lower level conference and I agree with Grunkie's original argument that if you want to be accurate you need to come up with a different distinction than mid-major for some conferences.

Ultimately I think this is an argument with no end because I don't think the two sides can agree upon the factors by which conferences should be ranked. I think the concept of $$$ (MidMajority's position) makes more sense when it comes to drawing that red line...I just think ends up grouping significantly weaker leagues into the mix.
 

coolhandgopher said:
I think you hit it grunkiejr. If NDSU can move up to the MVC someday, then they'd be a solid mid major. Until then, they are in the same boat as conferences such as the Patriot League, SWAC, Sun Belt, Big Sky, etc. And before Lakes or anyone else begins to dispute that ranking, they should keep in mind that those conferences can all claim NCAA wins in recent years (Bucknell, NE Louisiana, Western Kentucky, Weber St. off the top of my head) which the Summit League cannot claim as of yet.
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Western Kentucky has a tremendous history in basketball. I've always thought applying the mid-major to them is a kind of misnomer.

You know who the first "mid-major" was to rise to national prominence and sustain it's success on par with those power conference schools? Louisville.

Who here remembers the old Metro Conference?
 



GoAUpher said:
Honestly, you're supporting the main point that Grunkie makes. He wasn't saying that no one considered the Summit to be mid-major. Obviously media outlets from the 4-Letter on down call all non-BCS/Conf USA conferences mid-major. Grunkie was suggesting that this current terminology/paradigm is flawed.

The link you posted makes it clear that there are other opinions. MidMajority's is that the difference is based on money. I'll agree that this makes for an easier distinction but one that is probably too inclusive. Wrapping all the "smaller" schools into the title of mid-major makes more sense to me for football. In FB, the number of non-BCS conferences is fewer and where there is also 1-AA to fill in the gaps but less so in MBB where there are 300+ teams and 32 conferences.

I think the reason that everyone and their brother is a mid-major in MBB is because it is an easy distinction and it allows for better coverage of the remaining non-BCS/Conf USA schools by media/blogs/etc. While I don't think that it makes sense to group conferences that are drastically different in terms of quality of play together, I understand the idea behind it. But I don't see why/how one bid leagues are placed on the same level as consistent multi-bid mid-major conferences. If you're only placing your tourney champion into the Dance, you aren't a true mid-major conference. NDSU could very well become the Memphis of the Summit league. A good team that dominates a weaker league (but b/c they are good, not just because the league is weak).

I also don't think ragging on the Summit league has to translate into ragging on NDSU. I think NDSU has a nice thing going. Having grown up going to Bison FB and BB games I'm excited to see NDSU continue to succeed. But the Summit is a lower level conference and I agree with Grunkie's original argument that if you want to be accurate you need to come up with a different distinction than mid-major for some conferences.

Ultimately I think this is an argument with no end because I don't think the two sides can agree upon the factors by which conferences should be ranked. I think the concept of $$$ (MidMajority's position) makes more sense when it comes to drawing that red line...I just think ends up grouping significantly weaker leagues into the mix.
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The term low-major will never be accepted by a large group of schools and that is why there will always be the high-majors and the mid-majors. Sure some schools don't belong in the mid-major group but there are schools that don't belong in the high-major group either(most of CUSA for example doesn't).

I don't really like the terms mid-major or high major or low major. In my mind there are the BCS schools and everyone else. That is the true red line.
 

Conference USA isn't a high major conference. It wasn't when it was the Metro and it isn't one now. Memphis' up and down history on the national stage with Larry Finch, Gene Bartow and Calipari does make it a player for the fringes of the high major but C-USA overall isn't that great.
 

Statistically speaking...

the list above is pretty accurate. Those conferences (Colonial, Horizon, CUSA, MVC, MAC, WAC, WCC, A10, and Mountain West) minus the Big West have average conference RPI rankings in the top half of the league since 1999. In other words they above average or above mean conference RPI rankings as a group over time (Horizon being the weakest; some have cracked the top 6 from time to time).

I would say that the Summit league would be considered a "mid-major" conference if they consistently have a conference RPI ranking in the top 15 regardless of NCAA at large berths but NDSt can be considered a "mid-major" team or at least one worth mentioning (like Davidson or W Kentucky) if they consistently perform on a high level, including NCAA appearances.
 

FargoBison said:
The term low-major will never be accepted by a large group of schools and that is why there will always be the high-majors and the mid-majors. Sure some schools don't belong in the mid-major group but there are schools that don't belong in the high-major group either(most of CUSA for example doesn't).

I don't really like the terms mid-major or high major or low major. In my mind there are the BCS schools and everyone else. That is the true red line.
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No arguments with any of this. Especially on C-USA...on a year to year it is not that strong of a conference and without Memphis it would be seen as "mid-major".
 



I remember the Metro Conference, The Truth-Louisville won their '86 national title as part of the Metro Conference. I was a big fan of that team, and I recall diving into my college hoops obsession with the annual Sporting News college yearbook, which was a preview addition with a snazzy pull out in the middle of their preseason All Americans-a little less titillating than other pull out sections I tried to peruse in those days, but not by much ;). I also loved that magazine because it had the Top 100 prep players as ranked by Bob Gibbons towards the back; I was mad about writing in the colleges next to their names when I discovered where the preps were committing to.

Ahh, to be young and a dork in love with college basketball :)
 

So what I have gathered from the replies is this:

--Mid-major can be applied to both teams and conferences.

--In mid-major conferences (the ones highlighted in my post) all teams fit.

--In non-mid-major conferences such as the Sun Belt teams like Western Kentucky can be considered mid-major because they have achieved a 12 seed (the seed give to the worst of the at-large teams) and they have won in the NCAA tournament.

Therefore, teams that have never been capable of receiving an at-large berth to the NCAA tournament and have never won an NCAA game can not consider themselves mid-major unless they are in a conference that has achieved those standards on a regular basis.
 

FargoBison said:
The term low-major will never be accepted by a large group of schools and that is why there will always be the high-majors and the mid-majors. Sure some schools don't belong in the mid-major group but there are schools that don't belong in the high-major group either(most of CUSA for example doesn't).

I don't really like the terms mid-major or high major or low major. In my mind there are the BCS schools and everyone else. That is the true red line.
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Any level of common sense will tell you that you can't have majors and mid-majors as your two classes with no low major. If there is no low major then what is "mid" major?

C-USA is mid-major at best so throwing them out as an example that doesn't belong in the major grouping is like calling water wet.

I'm not saying I like the terms either but it is understandable how they develop. My only point was they developed because they made sense to group teams and then the terms were misapplied to include all non-BCS/Major or whatever you want to call them as mid-majors.
 

grunkiejr said:
Any level of common sense will tell you that you can't have majors and mid-majors as your two classes with no low major. If there is no low major then what is "mid" major?
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I suppose one could make the argument that anyone receiving a scholarship is playing major college basketball, so DivII would be low major, the BCS schools would be high major, and the other divI schools would be mid-major. Then minor college basketball would be reserved for DIII. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, but I could understand the reasoning.
 

Caravan Shaker said:
I suppose one could make the argument that anyone receiving a scholarship is playing major college basketball, so DivII would be low major, the BCS schools would be high major, and the other divI schools would be mid-major. Then minor college basketball would be reserved for DIII. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, but I could understand the reasoning.
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That is a good devil's advocate argument. However, the BCS schools are referred to only as "Major" so to me that is major college basketball. I think one has to be in DI and eligible to play in the tourney to be considered in the discussion.

Yes, DII gets scholarships but at the same point you could look at pro baseball and loook at the difference between the "Majors" and the "Minors." Everybody gets paid and is therefore a professional but there is still a separation between the majors and minor leagues. I view this as similar to college basketball where the separation is DI/DII and DIII would be independent leagues like the St. Paul Saints that have no affiliation to a pro baseball team.
 

grunkiejr said:
Any level of common sense will tell you that you can't have majors and mid-majors as your two classes with no low major. If there is no low major then what is "mid" major?

C-USA is mid-major at best so throwing them out as an example that doesn't belong in the major grouping is like calling water wet.

I'm not saying I like the terms either but it is understandable how they develop. My only point was they developed because they made sense to group teams and then the terms were misapplied to include all non-BCS/Major or whatever you want to call them as mid-majors.
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I don't think he was arguing that its high and mid with no low. He's just being realistic and pointing out that the terminology won't change now that it is solidified b/c no mid-majors won't accept being called low-major all of a sudden.
 

GoAUpher said:
I don't think he was arguing that its high and mid with no low. He's just being realistic and pointing out that the terminology won't change now that it is solidified b/c no mid-majors won't accept being called low-major all of a sudden.
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It is like a nickname, it isn't your choice what someone else calls you. I'm not even saying that we have to call them "low-major" I am just saying we shouldn't group all teams from non-BCS conferences in the mid-major category. The term mid-major is meant to define schools that are capable of getting an at-large berth to the NCAA tournament and therefore are more relevant to NCAA tourney/bubble discussions.
 

Metro Conference & the Great Midwest

There's a name from the past. Can still remember watching Alton Lee Gipson (sp?) of Florida State, Keith Lee of Memphis State and Dell Curry (Va Tech) on the tube. I remember in high school (early 80's) our town didn't have cable yet, but one of the local independent TV stations (with poor reception) ran tape-delay games of the Metro Conference late at night, so I'd fall asleep watching those games. Probably a part of the reason I'm still hooked on college hoops today.

Speaking of conferences from the past, does anyone remember the Great Midwest? Think it was only around for a few years, but it never reached the necessary criteria to earn an automatic bid despite having some quality programs (i.e. DePaul, Dayton).
 

SelectionSunday said:
Speaking of conferences from the past, does anyone remember the Great Midwest? Think it was only around for a few years, but it never reached the necessary criteria to earn an automatic bid despite having some quality programs (i.e. DePaul, Dayton).
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Yes, I remember that conference well. In addition to DePaul and Dayton, that conference included Memphis, Marquette, Cincinnati, St. Louis, and UAB.

That is a GOOD basketball league!!
 

grunkiejr said:
Any level of common sense will tell you that you can't have majors and mid-majors as your two classes with no low major.
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Yet I've still seen menus with soft drinks that come in medium, large and extra-large but no small. :D
 


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