Judd Zulgad: Gophers' success in nonconference tells us little about team

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Hard to argue with Zulgad. I'm glad the Gophers have continued to win ballgames, but I have absolutely no idea how this team will translate to Big Ten competition, or how it'll play on the road. The B1G season can't come soon enough.
 

Looking around the B10 yesterday and IU was hosting Kentucky, OSU was playing on the road at Kansas, Sparty went out to Spokane to play Gonzaga, and Wisconsin hosted a UNLV team that hammered UNC a few weeks ago. Too bad Tubby has no interest in playing road games or giving season ticket holders a little sumpin' sumpin' for some of the highest priced tickets in the country.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Too bad Tubby has no interest in playing road games or giving season ticket holders a little sumpin' sumpin' for some the highest priced tickets in the country.
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And getting higher next year - for decent seats.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Looking around the B10 yesterday and IU was hosting Kentucky, OSU was playing on the road at Kansas, Sparty went out to Spokane to play Gonzaga, and Wisconsin hosted a UNLV team that hammered UNC a few weeks ago. Too bad Tubby has no interest in playing road games or giving season ticket holders a little sumpin' sumpin' for some of the highest priced tickets in the country.
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DO NOT Ctiticize tubby!!!

He plays perhaps the roughest non conf sched than nearly anyone.
 


BarnBurner said:
DO NOT Ctiticize tubby!!!

He plays perhaps the roughest non conf sched than nearly anyone.
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You just hate Tubby. Criticism is fine, unrelenting hate is not. You NEVER point out any of the good games we've had, like bouncing back from the injury to TM and adjusting his system a bit for the 3 guards to be able to push it.
 

Judd's article hits the nail right on the head. The Gophers have played a few good-but-not-great teams but certainly haven't tested themselves on the road or against high-caliber opponents. Unfortunately, heading to Illinois will be both their first road game AND first game against a (presumably) top 25 team. I feel like you have to at least throw one or two tests out there in the non-conference season. No one is going to fault you for going on the road and possibly losing to a top-10 team - but at least take the shot.
 

I was talking with a GH friend of mine at yesterday's game and, while I like the new three guard lineup and the general vibe on the court, they haven't played anybody since Mbakwe got hurt. They also haven't played away from Williams. I really hope I'm wrong (as in "Peterson can't turn the corner" wrong) but I don't see this team getting much above six or seven wins in the B10. The gophers were bored yesterday against a what one would normally consider an inferior opponent. However, the final score was misleading, as was the differential between the two teams.

The Twin Cities could really use a feel good sports story and, no, the Lynx doesn't count. The gophers getting into the tournament would be wonderful. I wish that there was a post Mbakwe injury test that would qualify as an indication.
 

jammer, so the Wild leading the NHL, Gopher Hockey rated #2 in the Nation, Gopher Wrestling rated nationally, WE have Floyd of Rosedale, are not good news stories, and why doesn't the fact that the Lynx won the WNBA title count?
 



They did beat Va tech post mbakwe, who was the best team they have played, pre-or post injury

And what was misleading about the final score? They outscored them by 11 in both halves

Please point out when the game was in doubt, or where there wasn't a differential between the two with which you were satisfied or that St. Peter's wasn't an inferior team.
 

zambam said:
You just hate Tubby. Criticism is fine, unrelenting hate is not. You NEVER point out any of the good games we've had, like bouncing back from the injury to TM and adjusting his system a bit for the 3 guards to be able to push it.
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I dont hate Tubby Zammer. Not in the least.

I like to challenge the results that have been obtained by Tubby vs the expectations. The more revered gh members ride the fence about results vs expectations. They cant bring themselves to an honest assessment of Tubby and the program in year 5.

The non-con schedule is but one example Zammer. I have paid out a lot of $$ over 20 years to watch Gopher BB. Paid big $$ to watch inferior competitio at the Barn. Top coach should equate to top sched, a lot of wins, and not nearly the off court drama that we have seen.

Perhaps you just hate posters that call a spade a spade Zammer?
 

And next year we are playing in a tourny that will include half a dozen top 25 teams and in 2013 looks like the pre-season NIT. I don't think Tubby is avoiding scheduling teams because of his unwillingness...I just think he knows that we aren't there yet. If we can keep this team together and stop starting over and start reloading each year...we can get back to a competitive B1G team and NCAA team. I don't excuse Tubby for his mistakes or anyone else...but we have to get past them this year...and a feel good story would be this Gopher team competing for post season (NCAA or NIT) after losing an All American and potential B1G POY candidate. That would make me feel good anyways!
 

BarnBurner said:
I dont hate Tubby Zammer. Not in the least.

I like to challenge the results that have been obtained by Tubby vs the expectations. The more revered gh members ride the fence about results vs expectations. They cant bring themselves to an honest assessment of Tubby and the program in year 5.

The non-con schedule is but one example Zammer. I have paid out a lot of $$ over 20 years to watch Gopher BB. Paid big $$ to watch inferior competitio at the Barn. Top coach should equate to top sched, a lot of wins, and not nearly the off court drama that we have seen.

Perhaps you just hate posters that call a spade a spade Zammer?
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No, I dislike people that criticize a person without pointing out anything that they do well. Tubby has always had a weak non-conference schedule from what I understand. Even at Kentucky he had a fairly weak non-conference schedule. We knew that when he got here. Why did you expect that to suddenly change?

And who isn't honestly assessing where Tubby is at in year 5? Most people are definitely not happy with where this team is at in year 5. But also they see that if not for some injuries and transfers this team would be leaps and bounds better than it is. Is that partially Tubby's fault? Yes. But you can't blame him for injuries.
 



zambam said:
No, I dislike people that criticize a person without pointing out anything that they do well. Tubby has always had a weak non-conference schedule from what I understand. Even at Kentucky he had a fairly weak non-conference schedule. We knew that when he got here. Why did you expect that to suddenly change?

And who isn't honestly assessing where Tubby is at in year 5? Most people are definitely not happy with where this team is at in year 5. But also they see that if not for some injuries and transfers this team would be leaps and bounds better than it is. Is that partially Tubby's fault? Yes. But you can't blame him for injuries.
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You cant blame Tubby for anything, even the schedule, as you just said.

Thanks for making my point.
 

BarnBurner said:
You cant blame Tubby for anything, even the schedule, as you just said.

Thanks for making my point.
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Where did I say you can't blame Tubby for the schedule? What I said is you expected some fantastic opponents in the non-conference schedules despite the fact that is the exact opposite of what Tubby does. Should Tubby schedule better opponents? Yes. Where did I say he didn't need to? You're just reading what you want to read.
 

Dr.Don said:
jammer, so the Wild leading the NHL, Gopher Hockey rated #2 in the Nation, Gopher Wrestling rated nationally, WE have Floyd of Rosedale, are not good news stories, and why doesn't the fact that the Lynx won the WNBA title count?
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Back with the scolding.

The Lynx was a nice story and a morsel of food for a victory starved populace. I don't follow hockey (and it's fourth of the four major sports, even in this market). Floyd was nice for a day and it would have meant something if the team had won more than three games. Is wrestling a sport?
 

BarnBurner said:
I dont hate Tubby Zammer. Not in the least.

I like to challenge the results that have been obtained by Tubby vs the expectations. The more revered gh members ride the fence about results vs expectations. They cant bring themselves to an honest assessment of Tubby and the program in year 5.

The non-con schedule is but one example Zammer. I have paid out a lot of $$ over 20 years to watch Gopher BB. Paid big $$ to watch inferior competitio at the Barn. Top coach should equate to top sched, a lot of wins, and not nearly the off court drama that we have seen.

Perhaps you just hate posters that call a spade a spade Zammer?
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Yesterday tOSU played at Kansas. The big boys schedule those kinds of games. I can't recall the last time a non con opponent like that came into Williams. I wouldn't be surprised if around the final deadline for the priority seating deposits in the spring there is an early announcement of a major non con opponent. Probably a coincidence.
 

So you'll then blame the Gophers for bringing in a big opponent. They can't win with you.
 

Zambam,

Tubby didn't always play weak non-conference schedules at Kentucky.

During his entire tenure, they played a game against Indiana and Louisville every single season. Starting in 2000, they also played North Carolina every season. For much of the time, the Indiana game was played either in Louisville or Indy, but both sites allowed for many UK fans to attend.

Here are some home highlights during his tenure at Kentucky.

1998-99 (first season he had more control of the schedule)
No. 2 Maryland
Miami

99-00
No. 16 Utah
No. 5 Michigan State -- eventual national champions

00-01
Penn State -- which would get to the Sweet 16 -- was the best game. Played UCLA, St. John's, North Carolina, Georgia Tech and Michigan State on road or neutral.

01-02
North Carolina
Louisville

02-03
Michigan State

03-04
Louisville
North Carolina

04-05
Kansas

05-06
North Carolina
Louisville

06-07
Indiana
 

Personally, I think this schedule is perfect for the team we have this year. We are YOUNG, really young. When you have a young team, you want the young guys to build confidence and develop against lower level non-conference competition. Putting them through a top 25 gauntlet doesn't do anything but demoralize them going into conference play. If we had a older, more developed team then I'd be all for playing better teams in the non-conference and I think Tubby would too. We have had a top 10 W in the non-conference the last three years.
 

I never posted my overall feelings and they are that I don't feel like I know anything about this team because they haven't played anybody that was expected to be better than them.

I don't follow the gambling lines closely, but have they played a game in which they are the Vegas underdog? Possibly against VTech, but that would be up.

I don't think these young guards are going to have any idea what is going to hit them when they show up in the Champaign spaceship. That place is pretty loud. They only thing the Gophers have going for them is that the game is over break. I don't understand what the logic is in having that be the first road game of the season.
 

This thread has turned into discussing our non-conference strength of schedule, which has been pretty weak. Fair enough.

However, I disagree with Mr. Zulgad’s main premise. I think it HAS given us a good idea of how the team will perform in Big Ten play – we will likely be competitive against the middle and lower tier teams, especially at home, and probably get crushed by the top squads (ie OSU.) You don’t need an away game at Kansas to tell you that.
 

Madtown,

I don't think anybody is saying they should be put through a top 25 gauntlet, but I'd like to see them play somebody decent in the non-conference when the stakes are a little bit lower than in league play.

What's wrong with playing somebody like Marquette or Vanderbilt or UNLV or BYU or Washington or Oklahoma. One game against a program that goes to the NCAA tournament more than they don't. I think it would provide a nice opportunity for fans to see what they've got and for the coaches to really see what has to be worked on.

My fear is that the Gophers are going to go a quick 0-2 on the road and then they'll be trying to fix stuff and they'll lose one they shouldn't. Let's get a little beta testing done in November and early December so the thing is ready for a full launch right after Christmas.
 

anonymous said:
Madtown,

I don't think anybody is saying they should be put through a top 25 gauntlet, but I'd like to see them play somebody decent in the non-conference when the stakes are a little bit lower than in league play.

What's wrong with playing somebody like Marquette or Vanderbilt or UNLV or BYU or Washington or Oklahoma. One game against a program that goes to the NCAA tournament more than they don't. I think it would provide a nice opportunity for fans to see what they've got and for the coaches to really see what has to be worked on.

My fear is that the Gophers are going to go a quick 0-2 on the road and then they'll be trying to fix stuff and they'll lose one they shouldn't. Let's get a little beta testing done in November and early December so the thing is ready for a full launch right after Christmas.
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I think that is what they've been trying to do with the non-conference tourneys. Also, I think they are going to start doing some series with major conference teams, which is why they set up the two year deal with U$C. I'm not a season ticket holder so I don't really care if they don't bring in a top 10 team to the Barn. I usually like having a lot of good mid-major matchups, with some lower level big conference matchups, and then 1 top 10 type game in the nonconference. I like getting W's in the nonconference because lately we've been a bubble team, where every win, even nonconference wins, are crucial.
 

Why do the Gophers have to play UNC, UCONN, or Duke for people to what kind of team they are? I can watch them play Virginia Tech, Bucknell, and Fairfield and know that they are an average to below average basketball team.

Those of you that are saying you wish they would play a top level team to make your season tickets worth their value - that's a whole different argument.
 

And please, don't complain about how you choose to spend your own money.
 

jamiche said:
Yesterday tOSU played at Kansas. The big boys schedule those kinds of games. I can't recall the last time a non con opponent like that came into Williams. I wouldn't be surprised if around the final deadline for the priority seating deposits in the spring there is an early announcement of a major non con opponent. Probably a coincidence.
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Cincinnati came to Williams in Dec 96 I believe, and it was one of the best games I have ever seen in person, bar none. They were big boys at the time, and Clem played em.

Tubby played a more difficult sched at UK. Zammer could look at history and see it - if he wanted to.
 

Nonconference Home Games vs. Top 50 since 1993-94

Discussion about the Gophers' home nonconference schedule(s) (my favorite subject as a season-ticket holder) always gets me thinking. Historically, have they been as bad as some of us (myself included) think? For the record, I'm not down on this season's home schedule (2 BCS opponents, a first under Tubby, + a couple quality small-/mid-majors), though I do think there should be a true road game on the schedule every season.

So I did a little research going back to the 1993-94 season, when Jerry Palm at CollegeRPI.com started his web site. What I came up with is this: in the last 18 seasons the Gophers have played 12 home games vs. teams that ended up in the top 50 of the RPI, 6 under Clem, 6 under Monson & none to this point under Tubby. As BB noted, the Cincinnati game (it was 1998-99, a 62-61 OT loss) easily was the most notable nonconference game (in hype & delivery) at The Barn in roughly 20 years.

I'd argue the second most anticipated was an opponent that didn't even finish in the top 50 of the RPI, St. John's (#87) and star Felipe Lopez in 1996-97. The Gophers, sans Courtney James because of suspension, throttled the Johnnies 77-39, which brought Johnnies coach Fran Fraschilla to say after the game, (the first time I heard the words uttered with regard to the 96-97 Gophers), "That team is Final Four material."

I digress. Anyways, here's a list of the top-50 home opponents (based on RPI) the Gophers have played since the 1993-94 season, with the opponents' final RPI noted in parentheses.

1994-95: Cincinnati (#22) -- lost 91-88 in OT.
1996-97: West Virginia (#49) -- won 76-61 (even though Clem called it a "road" game because it was at Target Center).
1997-98: Utah State (#48) -- lost 75-64.
1997-98: Nebraska (#37) -- lost 70-66.
1998-99: Oregon (#40) -- won 72-61.
1998-99: Cincinnati (#9) -- lost 62-61 in OT.
2000-01: Georgia (#27) -- won 77-74.
2001-02: Oregon (#34) -- won 75-72.
2002-03: Georgia (#5) -- won 72-69.
2002-03: Texas Tech (#48) -- lost 99-89.
2005-06: UAB (#32) -- won 69-68.
2006-07: Clemson (#45) -- lost 90-68.

7 of those 12 ended up playing in the NCAA Tournament -- Cincinnati (95 and 99), Utah State, Nebraska, Georgia, Oregon & UAB. Georgia (03) was ineligible for the NCAA Tournament.

At this point of the current season, I'd say the only Gopher home opponents with a chance to finish in the top 50 of the RPI are Fairfield (currently #68) and Virginia Tech (currently #70). Moreso, Virginia Tech.
 

Regarding Zulgad's point- I agree - it is next to impossible to get a real good feel for whether or not this team can compete in the Big Ten this year. While it seems obvious that OSU is too much for us- I don't see anyone else that is just way beyond in talent level. But we are reviewing two different Gopher teams here: the one with Mbakwe -which played some decent teams prior to his injury and did fine and the one without Mbakwe which has only played VT since then.

As to the schedule- I don't blame it on Tubby. This is how we run our programs. Little league. Short term revenue rules. If you want to get a big time team into the Barn - you have to sacrifice short term revenue. They are not willing to do so. The secret to why the Barn is no longer the pit it once was could be seen on television over the weekend. All you had to do was watch the Indiana - Kentucky game. There's an arena that hasn't been so loud in recent years that got revived by watching a big time game. If you want the Barn to be alive- schedule big games in the Barn and win some of them.
 

Two things:

1. "Not learning from Non-Conference Schedule" is probably true, but in the last 10 years the Gophers have had a pretty lousy Non-Conference schedule and didn't come out of it with 1 loss.

2. OSU did play at Kansas and it would be nice to see some of those games. National TV played a role in that and probably in most big time Non-Conference games. That is games that feature two teams that there is national interest in. The Gophers haven't qualified as one of those teams in years or more accurately decades.

Now if White had flipped on some of his friends, or not gone into the dorm to begin with, or the U cops had bent a little, then maybe the Gophers could have been a showcase team this year; but that didn't happen and they're not.
 

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