I say that Thailleagle and Kaliq should line up at QB...

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KD6-3.7

KD6-3.7

credulous skeptic
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Brian Cupito was sacked a grand total of 30 times in his career (2004-2006) and was sacked a measly 3 times in 2005.

Adam Weber was sacked 30 times last year alone, and has been sacked 55 times up until last week, and is on track to finish this season (3 years) having been sacked over 70 times.

i think that we owe Weber a debt of gratitude for leading this team for the last three years with an offensive line with the consistency of swiss cheese.

so maybe not every single pass he has thrown has been on the mark, but i can give him a mulligan for dropping back knowing that there is a good change that he is going to get drilled by an amped up defensive lineman.
 

Seriously, these stats don't lie.

You've got former players in Justin Conzemius and Jack Brewer publicly saying on the radio they feel sorry for Weber, you've got an entire coaching staff that won't even let Gray throw a pass in a game, yet Thall and Khaliq know more than all of them.
 

Post of the day.

I'm at the point where I believe the o-line is a lost cause. I just hope the d-line regains it's manhood after having it ripped away by Sconnie.
 

Not sure why I'm being singled out. We all realize the offensive line play is awful and I've never advocated a change at QB. There's no one else on the roster to go to at this point.

I think all I said is that they should start giving Gray a series or two a game to see what they have in him which isn't that ridiculous in my opinion.

e:
josh087 said:
Seriously, these stats don't lie.

You've got former players in Justin Conzemius and Jack Brewer publicly saying on the radio they feel sorry for Weber, you've got an entire coaching staff that won't even let Gray throw a pass in a game, yet Thall and Khaliq know more than all of them.
Click to expand...
Why have opinions about anything then? Clearly everyone on the staff has much more information and see things on a day to day basis we don't. We look at things from the outside and have what are admittedly less informed opinions. If those are immediately discounted then 95% of the content of this board should not be posted.

This "you don't know more than the coaches" dismissal is silly.
 

Actually, while stats don't lie they can be misleading when provided without context. Keep in mind that when Cupito played the Gophers employed a run first offense which meant a lot of Cupitos looks were either on quick drops or play actions. Weber on the other hand is having to employ more 5 and 7 step drops and is holding onto the ball much longer, that combined with the increased number of attempts is going to expose him to much more risk of sacks.

Code: 
ATTEMPTS AS STARTER
Year  Cupito  Weber
One   261     449
Two   297     410
Three 359     415*

* Projected
That said Weber has had one year where he was obviously more under duress than Cupito even when you adjust for those attempts.
Code: 
ATTEMPTS PER SACK
Year  Cupito  Weber
One   29      34
Two   74      13
Three 20      15*

* Projected
I thought it was interesting that Weber was actually less under duress in his first year as a starter than Cupito was during his. Cupito go absolutely outstanding protection in his second year, but I'd call years one and three pretty much a push.

The other thing that's interesting is how little variance there was in Cupito's statistical performance despite the differences in protection. His year two and three numbers are almost identical despite the drop off.

59.3%, 8.52YPA, 19TD and 9INT in 2005 and 59.6%, 7.85YPA, 22TD and 9INT in 2006.

Anyways, I'm not sure why I'm being dragged into this argument. I guess someone was arguing that Cupito was better than Weber? I'm not the one who made that argument and I think it's pretty irrelevant. Weber has some flaws that are self-evident that he needs to correct, and even if he has poor protection (which has actually improved slightly statistically from last year to this year) there are still things both he and the staff can do to alleviate this.

He needs to be more decisive with the ball and accept that his line play isn't great, which means he can't hold onto the ball. He has to back, make his reads and get the ball out of there. The staff also has to do more to get pressure off of him. The running game has to improve, perhaps they need to use more designed roll outs and I'd like to see the TEs and backs chipping on pass rushers more.
 


Actually, while stats don't lie they can be misleading when provided without context. Keep in mind that when Cupito played the Gophers employed a run first offense which meant a lot of Cupitos looks were either on quick drops or play actions. Weber on the other hand is having to employ more 5 and 7 step drops and is holding onto the ball much longer, that combined with the increased number of attempts is going to expose him to much more risk of sacks.

Code: 
ATTEMPTS AS STARTER
Year  Cupito  Weber
One   261     449
Two   297     410
Three 359     415*

* Projected
That said Weber is obviously more under duress than Cupito even when you adjust for those attempts.
Code: 
ATTEMPTS PER SACK
Year  Cupito  Weber
One   29      34
Two   74      13
Three 20      15*

* Projected
I thought it was interesting that Weber was actually less under duress in his first year as a starter than Cupito was during his. Cupito got absolutely outstanding protection in his second year, but I'd call years one and three pretty much a push.

The other thing that's interesting is how little variance there was in Cupito's statistical performance despite the differences in protection. His year two and three numbers are almost identical despite the drop off.

59.3%, 8.52YPA, 19TD and 9INT in 2005 and 59.6%, 7.85YPA, 22TD and 9INT in 2006.

Anyways, I'm not sure why I'm being dragged into this argument. I guess someone was arguing that Cupito was better than Weber? I'm not the one who made that argument and I think it's pretty irrelevant. Weber has some flaws that are self-evident that he needs to correct, and even if he has poor protection (which has actually improved slightly statistically from last year to this year) there are still things both he and the staff can do to alleviate this.

He needs to be more decisive with the ball and accept that his line play isn't great, which means he can't hold onto the ball. He has to get back, make his reads and get the ball out of there. The staff also has to do more to get pressure off of him. The running game has to improve, perhaps they need to use more designed roll outs and I'd like to see the TEs and backs chipping on pass rushers more. They could also take advantage of defenses that pin their ears back and attack the QB with screens, draws and counters.

Clearly something has to change here and while I agree pulling Weber is NOT the right move there is work that needs to be done.
 

BUT

a QB in a spread offense isn't necessarily as threatened by the sack as a drop back QB like cupito (or even weber this year) no matter how pass happy because the spread usually relies on the quick short pass. while it takes longer for the pass play to develop for the drop back passer. for instance, last year texas tech attempted over 600 passes and gave up only 11 sacks.

the point is simple. continually having the defensive line in your ear hole can greatly affect a QBs poise.

i just added your name because of your blind criticism of weber.
 

I agree a QB who plays primarily out of the shotgun in the spread is going to be less at risk of a sack, however he's spent much more time under center and out of spread sets the past few years.

I fundamentally agree that the line play is poor, but it's incumbent upon Weber and the staff to adjust for that. They need to scheme around it and protect Weber in some of the ways I mentioned above. Again, I am not nor have I ever advocated a change at QB.

As for blind criticism of Weber? What things have I said about Weber that are demonstrably or objectively false?
 

Khaliq said:
I think all I said is that they should start giving Gray a series or two a game to see what they have in him which isn't that ridiculous in my opinion.
Click to expand...

The coaches do have a game plan, and in practice they decide who is the best choice at QB to succeed. Where in our first five games do you think a coach would be comfortable putting in a first year QB who might be more mistake prone than Weber? Every game has been tight, and we often have been trying to come from behind. In those circumstances, "giving Gray a series or two to see what they have," might indeed be ridiculous. I don't think Brewer has ever felt that he has had the luxury to experiment in a game.
 



Following along...I can recall decades ago...ouch....that the Vikes went through a period where the offensive line was quite porous...the answer Grant...I believe...came up with was to develop rollout packages for Tark that turned out to be pretty damn effective...bought him a lot more time and actually gave him a runnning option. As I recall, the team went quite far on some of those schemes to overcome basic OL problems.

Don't know why we haven't seen much of that out of Brew/JF as a method of increasing Weber's effectiveness and overcoming OL weaknesses.
 

We'll see where the sacks end up this year but I would be suprised if the rate of sacks don't increase. We still have games against Ohio State, Penn State, and Iowa. We'll probably give up more sacks in those games than in the Air Force, NW, and Syracuse games. Not to mention the growing injury troubles.
 

I think the game speed might have picked up since those days, while the field size has remained the same. I'm not sure it would be as effective if run often. But they could add it to keep the D guessing a bit.

I thought the line was a bit better saturday until the run was shelved. And then if was feast city for the DE's. I think we just need to do a better job executing our basic plays and hopefully we don't get into the situation where we become one dimensional.
 

I was ripped for saying Gray outplayed Golden Boy in the spring. "It was a vanilla offense," I was told. Well, Weber sucked in the spring against the 2nd string defense while Gray, with the 2nd string offensive line, was outstanding against our (granted) not so hot first string defense. Why not give him some vanilla plays to prove his worth?
 



Do I affect you that much that you make me a topic?

The line has nothing to do with Weber not throwing the ball away, no stat can justify that, sorry.......
 

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