I guess VCU belongs!

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BleedGopher

BleedGopher

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Wow, three wins in five days, after the media crucified their selection to the NCAA tournament.

Assuming they finish this game off, it will be a big win for them and a tough blow for Purdue, and certainly their season kind of came out from under their feet the last few weeks.

Go Gophers!!
 

Tough to believe they're handling Purdue w/ such ease. I'll be pulling for the classic 11-12 matchup to get to the Final Four!
 

This is exactly why I think people get way too critical of the selection committee and their last few at-large teams. You can debate just who should or shouldn't get in, but skewering the committee for allowing a team like VCU in is just ridiculous.
 

Im a Gopher Fan, and I also go to VCU and love the Rams. This is amazing, I was afraid about Purdue slowing down the tempo since I've seen the Gophers play them a couple time this year. They played right into our style - and now Richmond, VA has 2 teams in the Sweet Sixteen! I saw our team on selection sunday, not many of us thought we would make it in! This is amazing!
 

I don't think tournament performance changes whether or not a team should have been in the tournament in the first place.
 



GopherFan75 said:
I don't think tournament performance changes whether or not a team should have been in the tournament in the first place.
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First let me say props to VCU, they have earned them over the last week. They played great tonight, and Purdue played like crap.

But just because they have won 3 games in a row in the tourney doesn't mean they belong. At the end of the day VCU's resume wasn't tourney quality compared to other teams. If a team is unable to get a NCAA tournament quality resume during the regular season, especially in a year with a weak bubble, they shouldn't be in the tournament. I don't care if VCU win's the National Championship, there were teams that should have been in ahead of VCU.
 


mnboiler said:
First let me say props to VCU, they have earned them over the last week. They played great tonight, and Purdue played like crap.

But just because they have won 3 games in a row in the tourney doesn't mean they belong. At the end of the day VCU's resume wasn't tourney quality compared to other teams. If a team is unable to get a NCAA tournament quality resume during the regular season, especially in a year with a weak bubble, they shouldn't be in the tournament. I don't care if VCU win's the National Championship, there were teams that should have been in ahead of VCU.
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In your opinion...
 



mnboiler said:
First let me say props to VCU, they have earned them over the last week. They played great tonight, and Purdue played like crap.

But just because they have won 3 games in a row in the tourney doesn't mean they belong. At the end of the day VCU's resume wasn't tourney quality compared to other teams. If a team is unable to get a NCAA tournament quality resume during the regular season, especially in a year with a weak bubble, they shouldn't be in the tournament. I don't care if VCU win's the National Championship, there were teams that should have been in ahead of VCU.
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Agreed. The committee isn't selecting who will make it the best tourney or go far in it, they select who did the work during the regular season to earn it. Regardless of how they do now, many felt VCU did not do the regular season work to earn the tourney bid.

If a company gives a promotion to the laziest guy in the office and he ends up doing a great job at it, doesn't necessarily mean he deserved that promotion
 

Bleed, I'm not sure "the media" crucified the selection. I would say ESPN crucified the selection.
 

mnboiler said:
First let me say props to VCU, they have earned them over the last week. They played great tonight, and Purdue played like crap.

But just because they have won 3 games in a row in the tourney doesn't mean they belong. At the end of the day VCU's resume wasn't tourney quality compared to other teams. If a team is unable to get a NCAA tournament quality resume during the regular season, especially in a year with a weak bubble, they shouldn't be in the tournament. I don't care if VCU win's the National Championship, there were teams that should have been in ahead of VCU.
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VCU has beaten a 11, 6, and 3 seed in a week. That actually proves to me they did belong in the tournament. True it was a committee decision, but I have hard time saying Colorado or Virginia Tech deserve a seed anymore than VCU. Obviously VT and Colorado weren't able to get a NCAA tournament quality resume either. Hell Purdue beat VT earlier this year, and VCU just ran Purdue out of the gym.

I would be more inclined to say Michigan State and Missouri proved they didn't belong in the tournament. There's no way to be 100% sure who should get in but if the last team to get in the tournament gets three wins, its a sign the committee got it right.
 

scher215 said:
If a company gives a promotion to the laziest guy in the office and he ends up doing a great job at it, doesn't necessarily mean he deserved that promotion
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True, but it does mean the company/tournament is better off because of it.
 



Hypothetical. Lets say DePaul, who was 1-17 in the Big Least this year, got into the tournament by some mistake. They proceed to go on the same run that VCU has. Do they belong in the tournament? No. Just because someone gets hot at the right time doesn't mean they belong there.

Simply put at the end of the day there wasn't a single talking head that thought they should be in, and if there isn't one who think that should be in, they shouldn't be in. As I've said VCU has earned the love during the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact they didn't do the work to earn the love.

Think about it this way. You have been trying to get a date with the hottest girl in you class for the last 5 months, you are one of the best looking guy in the class and most girls will do what ever it takes to date you. But at the last moment some guy with a bad case of acme who hasn't talked to her at all, swoops in and gets the girl, not only over you but every other guy that has talked to her over the past 5 months. Just because he is dating the girl now doesn't mean he's earned it or put in the work to earn a date with her.
 

mnboiler said:
Hypothetical. Lets say DePaul, who was 1-17 in the Big Least this year, got into the tournament by some mistake. They proceed to go on the same run that VCU has. Do they belong in the tournament? No. Just because someone gets hot at the right time doesn't mean they belong there.

Simply put at the end of the day there wasn't a single talking head that thought they should be in, and if there isn't one who think that should be in, they shouldn't be in. As I've said VCU has earned the love during the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact they didn't do the work to earn the love.

Think about it this way. You have been trying to get a date with the hottest girl in you class for the last 5 months, you are one of the best looking guy in the class and most girls will do what ever it takes to date you. But at the last moment some guy with a bad case of acme who hasn't talked to her at all, swoops in and gets the girl, not only over you but every other guy that has talked to her over the past 5 months. Just because he is dating the girl now doesn't mean he's earned it or put in the work to earn a date with her.
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VCU earned the "love" in the tournament because they won 3 games in the tournament. Jerry Palm had us in, sports illustrated had us in. Only ESPN didn't have us anywhere near the tournament. Really there is no real big difference between the "last four in" and the "first four out" Virginia Tech/Colorado/UAB/VCU/Clemson all had similar resumes. The BIGGEST factor however that the committee looks at is road/neutral wins; and out of conference schedules. THis is because in the tournament you will be playing on the road, mostly against out of conference foes. Colorado (where my brother is an alum) played the 331st out of conference strength of schedule! And they lost a few of those!
Virginia Tech: Had a great shot at getting in for sure, but lost twice to UVA and at home to BC. Seth Greenberg has refused to schedule any CAA opponent after the Hokies have lost 4 out of 5 to ODU!
Alabama: 80th in RPI?
VCU: 49th in RPI, bad losses to GSU/Northeastern. Good neutral/road wins against UCLA, GMU, ODU. Wake Forest was a win, but they're horrible.

Again, there's no big difference between the last 4 teams in and the first 4 out. But for ESPN to crucify VCU like they did was pretty horrible and classless.

We're just happy VCU made it, and we're on our way to the sweet 16 for the first time. Im off to welcome the team back to Richmond - and if Shaka Smart does leave, hopefully its to Minnesota!
 

mnboiler said:
Hypothetical. Lets say DePaul, who was 1-17 in the Big Least this year, got into the tournament by some mistake. They proceed to go on the same run that VCU has. Do they belong in the tournament? No. Just because someone gets hot at the right time doesn't mean they belong there.

Simply put at the end of the day there wasn't a single talking head that thought they should be in, and if there isn't one who think that should be in, they shouldn't be in. As I've said VCU has earned the love during the tournament, but that doesn't change the fact they didn't do the work to earn the love.

Think about it this way. You have been trying to get a date with the hottest girl in you class for the last 5 months, you are one of the best looking guy in the class and most girls will do what ever it takes to date you. But at the last moment some guy with a bad case of acme who hasn't talked to her at all, swoops in and gets the girl, not only over you but every other guy that has talked to her over the past 5 months. Just because he is dating the girl now doesn't mean he's earned it or put in the work to earn a date with her.
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If DePaul went on that hypothetical run in the big east tournament, they would belong in the ncaa based on the criteria that has been set. There is no black and white criteria in selecting the last few bubble teams. The rpi is flawed, the sos is flawed, and the overall record is.

You want the tourney selections based on talking heads at espn? Enjoy dick vitale putting all acc teams in. Your argument is vcu didn't belong but you could also argue 5 other teams that made it didn't either. I don't know how a rational person can say vcu dont belong in the top 68 when they are in the sweet 16, if anything doesn't this say we overhype major conference teams?
 

anonymous said:
Bleed, I'm not sure "the media" crucified the selection. I would say ESPN crucified the selection.
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i heard the vcu pick ripped on fox sports radio, cnn, sporting news radio, usa today, cbs and kfan. so yea, that would be the media. maybe a few papers in arkansas and new mexico didn't, but much more than espn crucified the selection.
 

Portlandgopher said:
I don't know how a rational person can say vcu dont belong in the top 68 when they are in the sweet 16, if anything doesn't this say we overhype major conference teams?
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You are combining two things that there is a line between. The regular season and the NCAA tournament. The line between those two is Selection Sunday.

The fact is that, MOST of the media, people who's primary job it is to watch college basketball and be an expert on it, thought that VCU didn't belong over a team like VT. The selection committee, which is mostly AD's who primary job is to run an athletic department, made the wrong decision on who should be in the tournament. Their resume wasn't better, they didn't get the job done in the regular season. Sorry for believing people who's job it is to know college basketball over 10 people who's job it is to run an athletic department.

Again VCU should get all the love they can for their current run, but if my IM basketball team gets hot and goes on the same run it still doesn't mean we belong in the NCAA tourney.
 

mnboiler said:
You are combining two things that there is a line between. The regular season and the NCAA tournament. The line between those two is Selection Sunday.

The fact is that, MOST of the media, people who's primary job it is to watch college basketball and be an expert on it, thought that VCU didn't belong over a team like VT. The selection committee, which is mostly AD's who primary job is to run an athletic department, made the wrong decision on who should be in the tournament. Their resume wasn't better, they didn't get the job done in the regular season. Sorry for believing people who's job it is to know college basketball over 10 people who's job it is to run an athletic department.

Again VCU should get all the love they can for their current run, but if my IM basketball team gets hot and goes on the same run it still doesn't mean we belong in the NCAA tourney.
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The resumes of two teams in different conferences will never allow for a easy comparison between two teams. No resume test isn't flawed by something. The best test we have to determine who belongs in the tournament is the tournament itself. The tournament decides who is the best team in the country, if the tournament doesn't decide that lets just not have a tournament and let #1 play #2 the day after selection sunday.

I'm glad everybody has so much respect for the talking heads, but that doesn't mean they are always right. How many times do they get their tournament winner picks on selection sunday right?

I looked at realtimerpi.com and it looks like it included the first round of the nit and the play in game, but it had VCU's rpi at 49vs VT 62 and sos was 85 vs 77. Looking at that I have no problem with them picking VCU over VT. VCU has proven they belong in the tournament just as Boise State has done in football.
 

VCU's resume was fine compared with others left out

I understand that the ESPN guys are paid to voice their opinions, but my problem with their vicious criticism of VCU (much less so UAB) on Selection Sunday was, why did they go after those two in particular and not Clemson? I consider myself as someone who follows the selection process closely, and from what I could see VCU's resume was every bit as strong as Clemson's & probably stronger.

Point #1 -- VCU beat 4 NCAA qualifiers during the regular season, UCLA, Old Dominion, George Mason & Wofford. Clemson beat 2 (Florida State & Wofford).

Point #2 -- Specifically, Jay Bilas (and I respect him as an analyst) kept emphasizing that VCU "didn't beat anyone" (which is flat-out false), and he also kept pointing out VCU's bad losses (i.e. Georgia State), but he didn't do the same for Clemson. In fact, VCU had the same amount (3) of bad losses (to teams with an RPI of #101 or higher) as Clemson, yet we heard nothing about Clemson's bad losses, not even to mention its lack of quality wins.

I suspect it's easier for the talking heads to rip the committee for taking a couple non-majors (VCU & UAB) than it is to rip them for taking a major (Clemson), especially when the likely first two out were majors (Colorado & Virginia Tech). For the record, I had Clemson (in), VCU (in), Colorado (missed) & Virginia Tech (missed) all in the Field of 68, but I wasn't all that appalled when I heard Virginia Tech didn't make it. The Hokies blew their chance to cinch a bid when they lost to BC (at home) and Clemson immediately after upsetting Duke. They made their own bed, just as all these teams did.
 

You nailed it, Hodger. It really is about disrespect of the mid-majors by the media types, and I would say in particualr disrespect of the Colonial. That is a good conference and historically has performed well in the tournament. They come ready to play. When VCU beat George Mason in the conference tournament, I thought they should be in. Perhaps the venom toward the committee by ESPN was sideways anger about having their bid to televise the tournament rebuffed by the NCAA.
 

Portland Gopher, I think we are arguing 2 questions:

1. Did VCU one the 37 best resumes on Selection Sunday? Subjective answer we may never agree on.

2. Does success in March Madness for a team that many argue shouldn't be in justify them being in? I think the answer is clearly no, you disagree, which is fine, but if DePaul got an at-large bid somehow and won a few games that doesn't mean they had on of the 37 Selection Sunday, thus I argue they shouldn't be in the tourney in the first place.
 

I agree on what boiler is saying in that VCU being in the Sweet 16 doesn't justify their selection. The tournament selection is based on regular season performance. Anything that takes place after Selection Sunday means nothing when determining whether a team deserved to be in the tourney.

What justifies their selection is what SS is saying, in that their resume, when looking at it without bias, squares up to the rest of the bubble teams quite decently, specifically another bubble in Clemson who didn't receive hardly any heat for their inclusion.
 

VCU and Shaka were CBI Champs last year after the NIT snubbed them without an invite. Maybe Tubby should have tried to get a CBI bid this year and use it as a stepping stone to the Sweet 16 next year. The only problem with that theory though is we would have had to win the CBI this year though - and that might not have been in the cards.

Was Shaka named after Shaka Khan?
 


Thanks for the correction. Perhaps Shaka is the masculine form of Chaka.
 


Monty519 said:
I agree on what boiler is saying in that VCU being in the Sweet 16 doesn't justify their selection. The tournament selection is based on regular season performance. Anything that takes place after Selection Sunday means nothing when determining whether a team deserved to be in the tourney.

What justifies their selection is what SS is saying, in that their resume, when looking at it without bias, squares up to the rest of the bubble teams quite decently, specifically another bubble in Clemson who didn't receive hardly any heat for their inclusion.
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Agreed. If they had selected Indiana for example and they beat a few teams in the tourney, that doesn't mean they deserved to be in at all, as they were abysmal for most of the regular season.
 

I think SS has it exactly right. If you want to grip about a team that got in, UAB is the one to complain about. Somehow during that process of complaining about UAB, VCU got thrown into this mix. Perhaps because it made ESPN’s projections look wrong? Many in the media followed suit. As SS points out many, including he, had VCU in.

The margin of victory in VCU’s NCAA games (16.333) is what is making me laugh at the talking heads. I think a borderline team can prove their worth in the tourney. VCU has done so. UAB didn’t really help their cause. George Mason was a controversial pick in 2006. Now they have a Final Four banner in their gym.
 

mnboiler said:
First let me say props to VCU, they have earned them over the last week. They played great tonight, and Purdue played like crap.

But just because they have won 3 games in a row in the tourney doesn't mean they belong. At the end of the day VCU's resume wasn't tourney quality compared to other teams. If a team is unable to get a NCAA tournament quality resume during the regular season, especially in a year with a weak bubble, they shouldn't be in the tournament. I don't care if VCU win's the National Championship, there were teams that should have been in ahead of VCU.
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Like who? VT who followed up it's 'great' win over Duke by letting BC come into it's building and desroy it be by 20? VT who was so inspired by the injustice they lost in the 2nd round of the NIT? Or VT who plays a pathetic non-conference schedule every year when the could be playing VCU and Richmond with ease but is far to scared of getting beat. Why challenge yourself with VCU when Longwood is just as close right? I have zero sympathy.
 

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