Hindsight: Should have given Chip the keys

[EG#9]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't blame Tubby for putting Blake at the point and I think there's a real possibility that Chip would have been a disaster. That said, with the advantage of knowing how the season played out, we would have been much better off just handing the ball to Chip and living with the mistakes he made. He's far too left hand dominant and likely would have made a number of mind numbingly poor decisions in his first few games. However, there at least would have been a chance that Chip would have grown more comfortable in the role and offered us some athleticism and penetration ability at the point. We certainly could not have lost any more games than we did by sliding Blake over and going big in the frontcourt and there's a real possibility the team would have played better ball late in the year resulting in a better record. The added bonus would have been that we'd then have an experience ball handler coming back next year in Chip as he would have been forced to improve that aspect of his game.

The potential downside? Chip not just being a disaster but losing his confidence in the process. However if he's not lost his confidence by how Tubby has handled him to this point, maybe that is not even a legitimate concern.


Again, it's easy to say that I think that's what should have been done now that the seemingly impossible has happened and the Gophers have lost 8 of 9 with 5 or 6 bad losses in that mix.

 

[Rosemountian]

I don't have an issue with anyone saying Chip should be playing 25 minutes a game...not at PG though. Dude would struggle. Put him on the wing and let him ball. Let blake distribute (he can't score from the 2 position anyways).

The myth is that Blake lost his scoring ability at the 1 position:
The facts:
In games where he started at PG PPG= 14.1
In games where he started not at PG PPG = 13.7
In Big Ten games where he started not at PG PPG = 12.4

 

[EG#9]

I don't have an issue with anyone saying Chip should be playing 25 minutes a game...not at PG though. Dude would struggle. Put him on the wing and let him ball. Let blake distribute (he can't score from the 2 position anyways).

The myth is that Blake lost his scoring ability at the 1 position:
The facts:
In games where he started at PG PPG= 14.1
In games where he started not at PG PPG = 13.7
In Big Ten games where he started not at PG PPG = 12.4

One thing to remember about scoring averages is that Blake's ppg at SG happened during the toughest portion of the schedule. It's my opinion that Blake would have scored more (and been a more efficient 3 point shooter) at the 2 guard without the additional wear and tear that comes with having to bring the ball up the court. I also think that it would have helped the bigs to have a guy handling the ball who could get to the rim off the bounce.

 

[bga1]

I don't have an issue with anyone saying Chip should be playing 25 minutes a game...not at PG though. Dude would struggle. Put him on the wing and let him ball. Let blake distribute (he can't score from the 2 position anyways).

The myth is that Blake lost his scoring ability at the 1 position:
The facts:
In games where he started at PG PPG= 14.1
In games where he started not at PG PPG = 13.7
In Big Ten games where he started not at PG PPG = 12.4

Here's the problem Rose- his efficency went way down. The move to point took a guy who was shooting 54% FG and 46% 3PT in the 7 early Big Ten games (against tougher teams) down to 37% FG and 37% 3PT. Of course his turnovers when up substantially as well. It's no this fault- he just can't play that spot.

 

[Haugy#33]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't blame Tubby for putting Blake at the point and I think there's a real possibility that Chip would have been a disaster. That said, with the advantage of knowing how the season played out, we would have been much better off just handing the ball to Chip and living with the mistakes he made. He's far too left hand dominant and likely would have made a number of mind numbingly poor decisions in his first few games. However, there at least would have been a chance that Chip would have grown more comfortable in the role and offered us some athleticism and penetration ability at the point. We certainly could not have lost any more games than we did by sliding Blake over and going big in the frontcourt and there's a real possibility the team would have played better ball late in the year resulting in a better record. The added bonus would have been that we'd then have an experience ball handler coming back next year in Chip as he would have been forced to improve that aspect of his game.

The potential downside? Chip not just being a disaster but losing his confidence in the process. However if he's not lost his confidence by how Tubby has handled him to this point, maybe that is not even a legitimate concern.


Again, it's easy to say that I think that's what should have been done now that the seemingly impossible has happened and the Gophers have lost 8 of 9 with 5 or 6 bad losses in that mix.

I agree with you!! Chip should have been given the reins. As always hindsight is 20/20. I love Hoff but he is not a point guard.

 

[bga1]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't blame Tubby for putting Blake at the point and I think there's a real possibility that Chip would have been a disaster. That said, with the advantage of knowing how the season played out, we would have been much better off just handing the ball to Chip and living with the mistakes he made. He's far too left hand dominant and likely would have made a number of mind numbingly poor decisions in his first few games. However, there at least would have been a chance that Chip would have grown more comfortable in the role and offered us some athleticism and penetration ability at the point. We certainly could not have lost any more games than we did by sliding Blake over and going big in the frontcourt and there's a real possibility the team would have played better ball late in the year resulting in a better record. The added bonus would have been that we'd then have an experience ball handler coming back next year in Chip as he would have been forced to improve that aspect of his game.

The potential downside? Chip not just being a disaster but losing his confidence in the process. However if he's not lost his confidence by how Tubby has handled him to this point, maybe that is not even a legitimate concern.


Again, it's easy to say that I think that's what should have been done now that the seemingly impossible has happened and the Gophers have lost 8 of 9 with 5 or 6 bad losses in that mix.

Regardless of how they broke down the roles I think that Chip should have been playing along side of Hoff for substantial minutes all along. A slasher like him is the idea compliment to Hoff. They could have shared the ball handling duties and created perimeter pressure on the defenses they faced. This makes the interior game better. As much as Chip likes to go for the hole I didn't see him being reluctant to pass the ball quickly either. He does not to be a selfish player that just dribbles around on the perimeter hoping to make a play for himself. Chip typically got the ball and either passed it quickly or drove. We needed that. Oh well.

The line up that would have created significant defensive pressure as well as better offense was Hoff, Armelin, Hollins, Mbakwe and Sampson.

 

[MotherNight]

Armelin is the worst defender on the team. You continue to not see that. Chip came in last night and instantly lost his man. I like what I've seen from him on O. He's a work in progress. The idea things would be any different with Chip at PG is insane.

 

[bga1]

Armelin is the worst defender on the team. You continue to not see that. Chip came in last night and instantly lost his man. I like what I've seen from him on O. He's a work in progress. The idea things would be any different with Chip at PG is insane.

Yes in his 5 to 8 minutes on the floor Chip will ocassionally lose his man. I saw him lose his guy early and the guy got a layup. Are you trying to tell me that the other Gophers are not giving up wide open shots? They are- plus most of them have the added bonus- they can't score either. Mother- everybody gets beat now and then. I've watched Chip on both ends. My guess is that the more he plays the better he gets at defense. Heaven knows Rodney, Ralph and others sure have been learning on the job.

If you like the idea of a team that can't score that constantly just puts it's 5 best defenders on the floor fine- that's you. I think you need a balanced approach offense and defense. There will be a day where we have better players (I hope next year) where a guy like Chip will have to get better on defense or he doesn't deserve to be out there because we have TWO WAY PLAYERS on the court who are better (what a concept- players that can play both offense and defense). But now is not that time.

Smith chooses defense solely. From a fans perspective I see that players generally get more fired up on defense when their team is on a roll on the offensive side. It's human nature. Scoring energizes. That's why you need to do both- they feed on each other. Armelin has been given major court time in one game this year and in it he scored 12 and was the only one prepared to try and step and win the game for us. Maybe another chance is merited.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

Preposterous Statement Alert:

Maybe Chip will get sick of it all and just join Coach Kill's squad!

 

[mtgo4]

I see where Tubby had to throw somebody under the bus again. It's too bad he doesn't admit that he isn't near the coach he thonks he is. Maybe someone should inform him that no matter what defense he chooses to use, the team still needs scorers. he also has the worst defense against the three in college basketball.

 

[MotherNight]

Bga1, your lineup with significant ball pressure and better offense is Hoff, Armelin, Hollins, Mbakwe and Sampson. We are going to get significant ball pressure from Hoff and Armelin up front. Really? That sounds like one adverage and one below adverage defenders up front. Hollins, our best parameter defender, is playing wing in that lineup. That isn’t a bad spot for Hollins, but he is needed up front right now. Chip or Blake can’t play wing so I have no idea where your “significant ball pressure” is going to come from in that lineup.

In the back court of Al Nolen and Blake Hoffarber, Hoff was the balance of offense. 2 guards often are. Chip and Hoff isn't a balance of O and D. Chip gets beat frequently on defense and is consistently out of position. I said I like what I’ve seen from Chip on offense and he is a work in progress. I’m glad we have him. Chip came in and drove the basket when Northwestern was playing 3 point prevention D late in the game. Mav also got to the basket then. Those lanes were not available all game.

Rodney (who is playing hurt) along with Andre Hollins/JUCO PG are the keys to our team being good next year. Sampson’s mid-range jumper has kept us in games. Hoff was the right choice at PG because he is mature and plays fundamentally sound basketball (even though he didn’t show it much last night).

Our team was very reliant on Al Nolen. That is a legitimate complaint. The idea that Chip Armelin is even brought up as a solution is evidence of that.

Plays that get the players and fans fired up usually happen in the open court in transition. Those are usually keyed by a defensive stop or steal. It’s hard to make those plays after the defense gives up a layup. Learn to understand the game of basketball.

 

[bga1]

Bga1, your lineup with significant ball pressure and better offense is Hoff, Armelin, Hollins, Mbakwe and Sampson. We are going to get significant ball pressure from Hoff and Armelin up front. Really? That sounds like one adverage and one below adverage defenders up front. Hollins, our best parameter defender, is playing wing in that lineup. That isn’t a bad spot for Hollins, but he is needed up front right now. Chip or Blake can’t play wing so I have no idea where your “significant ball pressure” is going to come from in that lineup.

In the back court of Al Nolen and Blake Hoffarber, Hoff was the balance of offense. 2 guards often are. Chip and Hoff isn't a balance of O and D. Chip gets beat frequently on defense and is consistently out of position. I said I like what I’ve seen from Chip on offense and he is a work in progress. I’m glad we have him. Chip came in and drove the basket when Northwestern was playing 3 point prevention D late in the game. Mav also got to the basket then. Those lanes were not available all game.

Rodney (who is playing hurt) along with Andre Hollins/JUCO PG are the keys to our team being good next year. Sampson’s mid-range jumper has kept us in games. Hoff was the right choice at PG because he is mature and plays fundamentally sound basketball (even though he didn’t show it much last night).

Our team was very reliant on Al Nolen. That is a legitimate complaint. The idea that Chip Armelin is even brought up as a solution is evidence of that.

Plays that get the players and fans fired up usually happen in the open court in transition. Those are usually keyed by a defensive stop or steal. It’s hard to make those plays after the defense gives up a layup. Learn to understand the game of basketball.

I'll get right to work on it. Another 50 years of watching games and I'll be up to your level. Meanwhile Mrs. Smith, I'm sure you can tell me about all the stuff that HAS worked real well the past nine games.

 

[Rosemountian]

One thing to remember about scoring averages is that Blake's ppg at SG happened during the toughest portion of the schedule. It's my opinion that Blake would have scored more (and been a more efficient 3 point shooter) at the 2 guard without the additional wear and tear that comes with having to bring the ball up the court. I also think that it would have helped the bigs to have a guy handling the ball who could get to the rim off the bounce.

I've never seen the non conf part of the schedule referred to as the toughest part but yea I get it. He hasn't fallen off nearly as much as people think. He's always been a poor first option scorer

 

[bga1]

I've never seen the non conf part of the schedule referred to as the toughest part but yea I get it. He hasn't fallen off nearly as much as people think. He's always been a poor first option scorer

He went way down compared to the pre Nolen injury versus conference games. See my post earlier: "Here's the problem Rose- his efficency went way down. The move to point took a guy who was shooting 54% FG and 46% 3PT in the 7 early Big Ten games (against tougher teams) down to 37% FG and 37% 3PT. Of course his turnovers when up substantially as well. It's no this fault- he just can't play that spot."

 

[MotherNight]

I'll get right to work on it. Another 50 years of watching games and I'll be up to your level. Meanwhile Mrs. Smith, I'm sure you can tell me about all the stuff that HAS worked real well the past nine games.

We've got a strong post presence with Trevor. Sampson's ability to knock down jumpers has let us run a bigger lineup which adds versatility when there is foul trouble. That is important since we only have 8 players. Opponents’ points in the paint have been held in check.

There are not guards on our team who can get the ball inside and handle pressure defense. There is no lineup combination that will fix that. We lost to a bad NU team because Blake played poorly and we missed almost all of our open parameter shots. We need a guard that is confident and able to handle the basketball who can either consistently create his own shot or can use his ability to create shots for others. We don't have that.

In that situation I'd focus on defense as much as possible. I'd start a lineup of Blake, Hollins, Rodney, Trevor, and RSIII. The only way I'm going to win without a guard that can do the above is with defense. In the two games we won without Al, Rodney played well and racked up assists. He's the only player I see that is capable of making a difference on this team as it is currently composed, and he's playing hurt.

 

[MotherNight]

He went way down compared to the pre Nolen injury versus conference games. See my post earlier: "Here's the problem Rose- his efficency went way down. The move to point took a guy who was shooting 54% FG and 46% 3PT in the 7 early Big Ten games (against tougher teams) down to 37% FG and 37% 3PT. Of course his turnovers when up substantially as well. It's no this fault- he just can't play that spot."

You are right here. Rose is also right that Blake has always been a poor first option scorer

 

[bga1]

We've got a strong post presence with Trevor. Sampson's ability to knock down jumpers has let us run a bigger lineup which adds versatility when there is foul trouble. That is important since we only have 8 players. Opponents’ points in the paint have been held in check.

There are not guards on our team who can get the ball inside and handle pressure defense. There is no lineup combination that will fix that. We lost to a bad NU team because Blake played poorly and we missed almost all of our open parameter shots. We need a guard that is confident and able to handle the basketball who can either consistently create his own shot or can use his ability to create shots for others. We don't have that. In that situation I'd focus on defense as much as possible. I'd start a lineup of Blake, Hollins, Rodney, Trevor, and RSIII. The only way I'm going to win without a guard that can do the above is with defense. In the two games we won without Al, Rodney played well and racked up assists. He's the only player I see that is capable of making a difference on this team as it is currently composed, and he's playing hurt.

Here is where we are just going to disagree. I don't think Chip is the perfect answer but I think, given minutes (as he was in one game - and he produced) he can provide a lot of what you ask for.

The big lineup you laud because of it's inside presence and Ralphs ability to hit jumpers is also the same lineup that cannot cover the three point line. Opponents' coaches have unanimously detected this and have ordered their teams to fire 30+ 3 point shots per game. Hitting them at 33% has given them an effective 50% shooting percentage (if they had been shooting twos). Furthermore this strategy helps opponents avoid turnovers as they eschew the risky penetration or interior passing. Finally some of our great rebounding advantage is somewhat negated with the long rebound that is inevitable with missed three pointers.

Meanwhile on offense, opposing defenses pack it in and put a guy out to shadow Hoff. They leave Hollins, Chip, Maverick and Williams fairly free to cast up any shot they like. It takes somebody with the guts and ability to drive to drag the defense out of it's sagging position and Chip has that- plus he has started to be a little threat hitting threes -even though he was abysmal earlier in the year. My strategy of using Chip more certainly comes with no surety that it will work. I just know this for a fact- and so do you- NOTHING ELSE HAS. Ralphs vaunted shooting ability (and he has improved a lot this year) rears it's head about 4 times a game in his 30+ minute span.

 

[RolGnav]

Mark my words, he will eventually transfer. Tubby just doesn't like him. He is clearly the only one that can create a shot. If he isn't already frustrated with Tubby, he will be soon.

Now you start to wonder why Devoe and Cobbs left.

 

[bga1]

Mark my words, he will eventually transfer. Tubby just doesn't like him. He is clearly the only one that can create a shot. If he isn't already frustrated with Tubby, he will be soon.

Now you start to wonder why Devoe and Cobbs left.

That's my short term fear- that he transfers. The good thing is that Tubby has only two more games in which to seriously tick him off with and Tubby has had a little history of moving to a little bit more aggressive approach in the Big Ten tournament. The two previous years he actually decided to let Bostick play and of course we all know about Joseph last year. So maybe Chip will play more.

Meanwhile, my greater concern is that Tubby likes to talk about tough aggressive players that can drive, shoot and score but he doesn't like to play them muhc. So the long term fear is that he just has a reputation for this that will make it tough for us to attract high end guards. Big men should not be an issue as Tubby historically loves to go inside. College basketball is all about guards- especially come tourney time.

 

[scher215]

That's my short term fear- that he transfers. The good thing is that Tubby has only two more games in which to seriously tick him off with and Tubby has had a little history of moving to a little bit more aggressive approach in the Big Ten tournament. The two previous years he actually decided to let Bostick play and of course we all know about Joseph last year. So maybe Chip will play more.

Meanwhile, my greater concern is that Tubby likes to talk about tough aggressive players that can drive, shoot and score but he doesn't like to play them muhc. So the long term fear is that he just has a reputation for this that will make it tough for us to attract high end guards. Big men should not be an issue as Tubby historically loves to go inside. College basketball is all about guards- especially come tourney time.

I know that is the common refrain (guards in the tourney) but I have a hard time believing that the right big men can't carry in the tourney as well.

Can the Gophers big men do it? I don't think so, but maybe. But insert a High School KG (or Pau Gasol, Amare, Dwight Howard, etc.) and I think they have as good of chance as any of these guard led teams at advancing.

My point being, if Tubby were to bring in a top big man, a special big man, he'd be just fine without the high end guard to accompany him come tourney time. He would need a competant guard for sure, but not necessarily John Wall.

 

[Rosemountian]

The problem with the gopher Bigs is that they simply are not dominant they are merely good. Mbakwe is a great rebounder....he is no better than an above average offensive player.
Sampson cannot really play on the block, he is much better at the elbow or short base line. Sampson is the best offensive Big Man the gophers have.
Iverson has no touch, when he gets hot he can be a guy you can go to. But that has been about 10 games in his first 3 years as a gopher.

The gophers have a good front line as a whole, but they do not have anyone they can always go to in crunch time. They don't have anyone like that on his team at any position. And that is the problem. Nolen is in no way a go to guy, but he was the closest thing they had to it when Joseph left. If Mbakwe comes back and refines his game, he could become that (the way J. Johnson has this year). If Sampson got a little bit tougher and a little more decisive he could become that. If Iverson could play his best game every game he could become that.
None of the guys are yet at this point.

 

[MotherNight]

Here is where we are just going to disagree. I don't think Chip is the perfect answer but I think, given minutes (as he was in one game - and he produced) he can provide a lot of what you ask for.

The big lineup you laud because of it's inside presence and Ralphs ability to hit jumpers is also the same lineup that cannot cover the three point line. Opponents' coaches have unanimously detected this and have ordered their teams to fire 30+ 3 point shots per game. Hitting them at 33% has given them an effective 50% shooting percentage (if they had been shooting twos). Furthermore this strategy helps opponents avoid turnovers as they eschew the risky penetration or interior passing. Finally some of our great rebounding advantage is somewhat negated with the long rebound that is inevitable with missed three pointers.

Meanwhile on offense, opposing defenses pack it in and put a guy out to shadow Hoff. They leave Hollins, Chip, Maverick and Williams fairly free to cast up any shot they like. It takes somebody with the guts and ability to drive to drag the defense out of it's sagging position and Chip has that- plus he has started to be a little threat hitting threes -even though he was abysmal earlier in the year. My strategy of using Chip more certainly comes with no surety that it will work. I just know this for a fact- and so do you- NOTHING ELSE HAS. Ralphs vaunted shooting ability (and he has improved a lot this year) rears it's head about 4 times a game in his 30+ minute span.

Ha I agree nothing else has worked. I don't laud any current lineup nor did I pick the big lineup as my prefered lineup.

 

[MotherNight]

The problem with the gopher Bigs is that they simply are not dominant they are merely good. Mbakwe is a great rebounder....he is no better than an above average offensive player.
Sampson cannot really play on the block, he is much better at the elbow or short base line. Sampson is the best offensive Big Man the gophers have.
Iverson has no touch, when he gets hot he can be a guy you can go to. But that has been about 10 games in his first 3 years as a gopher.

The gophers have a good front line as a whole, but they do not have anyone they can always go to in crunch time. They don't have anyone like that on his team at any position. And that is the problem. Nolen is in no way a go to guy, but he was the closest thing they had to it when Joseph left. If Mbakwe comes back and refines his game, he could become that (the way J. Johnson has this year). If Sampson got a little bit tougher and a little more decisive he could become that. If Iverson could play his best game every game he could become that.
None of the guys are yet at this point.

I agree with all of that. Rodney is definitely a X factor. He's got all the tools to be a huge crunch time difference maker. Here is to hoping he spends all next year in the gym taking jumpshots.

 

[bga1]

I agree with all of that. Rodney is definitely a X factor. He's got all the tools to be a huge crunch time difference maker. Here is to hoping he spends all next year in the gym taking jumpshots.

Lots of practice is needed. But most of it is between the ears. Gotta believe and go for it.

 

[tikited]

I agree with all of that. Rodney is definitely a X factor. He's got all the tools to be a huge crunch time difference maker. Here is to hoping he spends all next year in the gym taking jumpshots.

I'm not so sure he has all of the tools. Jumping? Check. Dunking? Check. Shooting? Nope. Dribbling? Nope. Ability to get to the hoop with the ball? Nope. Passing? Nope. I'd absolutely love to see the kid get it together, but he hasn't shown any ability besides jumping and dunking. A soph in college should be able to do most of those things by now. He "should" be an X factor.

 

[beavergopher]

I'm not so sure he has all of the tools. Jumping? Check. Dunking? Check. Shooting? Nope. Dribbling? Nope. Ability to get to the hoop with the ball? Nope. Passing? Nope. I'd absolutely love to see the kid get it together, but he hasn't shown any ability besides jumping and dunking. A soph in college should be able to do most of those things by now. He "should" be an X factor.

Agree.