HELP ! I need somebody...

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Section201

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HELP. I need somebody to explain the benefits of automatically "helping", or doubling a low post guy when it means leaving your man wide open setting up on the three point line.

From this mornings Strib Blake is quoted.

"It's everyone getting scored on, so I think guys have to help more ... just play intense the whole 35 seconds on the shot clock," Hoffarber said.

It seems to me there is too much "helping" going on already!

I can see doubling selectively but to do it nearly every time regardless of what low post player your are doubling on or who you are leaving wide open seems "unwise" to me.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have seen some Gopher defender wildly rushing at an opponent shooting an uncontested three as if the visual disturbance three to five feet away will deter the shooter.

If we are going to play man to man why don't we try to stay with our man?

Many teams have multiple players shooting 40% plus from threes so it does not make sense to me to purposely leave them undefended.

I know there are some knowledgeable hoops folks out there. Please explain this to me.

:confused:
 

I have been asking the same question all season. I get especially frustrated when the Gophers are double teaming opposing post players that have not demonstrated any ability to score and are 2-4 inches shorter than our post defender.
 

Doubling down

When a player comes and "doubles down" on a player the that has to be coordinated with the other 3 players who have to play passing lanes and cut off easy passes out of the double team.

If the other 3 players don't do what they are supposed to do (cut off passing lanes), well then you get a easy three from a player at the top of the key or from some other location, especially if that team has a host of good shooters, unlike our Gophers who have only 1 or 2 on the floor at any one time.

It looked to me like Blake doubled down on his own during that last few minutes of the game. I think he was trying to keep Mbawkee from getting his 5th foul. I didn't notice any rotation. Doubling down is a gamble but it has to be a coordinated effort by all.

Do you think our opponents are really worried about Nolan or Trevor or Williams making a shot when our post men get doubled up?
 

It's laziness. Saw several times when the defense would rotate to the ball handler the ball would get passed around the perimeter and nobody else would rotate. Everyone needs to be on the same page and be ready to step out to whoever gets the ball passed to them or get in the passing lane. Saw several times yesterday guys would just stand there when the ball got passed like they thought someone else was out there or something.
 

Ball movement

If we do defend the first pass back out from the post, it's just a simple pass or two around the arc to find the next open 3-pt shooter. We constantly chasing the ball and we're one pass behind. And then eventually the back side post player (ex. Iverson) is flying out and jumping at a 3-pt shooter in the corner. They either get off a great shot, hang on and drive around the flailing defender, or something good happens for the offense. I don't think that defense allows us to really ever catch up to the ball unless the offense pauses with it.
 


Study the Ball Line Defense and Tubby's history and you'll see this is pretty much his SOP.

The problem with the Ball Line is that is was designed by J.D. Barnett for a game that didn't have the three point shot. It can be effective but it takes a group of extremely long, athletic, quick defenders who are smart enough to handle the perimeter rotations. It also helps if they're experienced. Even then you can still get burnt. That's why it will always get killed by teams that can reverse the ball quickly and crisply.
 

The Truth said:
Study the Ball Line Defense and Tubby's history and you'll see this is pretty much his SOP.

The problem with the Ball Line is that is was designed by J.D. Barnett for a game that didn't have the three point shot. It can be effective but it takes a group of extremely long, athletic, quick defenders who are smart enough to handle the perimeter rotations. It also helps if they're experienced. Even then you can still get burnt. That's why it will always get killed by teams that can reverse the ball quickly and crisply.
Click to expand...

So Truth - if this defense indeed requires experience and Tubby is a defensive coach first and foremost- did Tubby have trouble putting frosh on the court at Kentucky? It seems here at Minnesota- he has had a hard time playing young guards and wings (which appear to be the more complicated assignments in this defense). I have noticed several young players over the past few years actually appear to lose confidence because of their defensive mistakes. So far in his tenure here, the biggest problem Tubby has had is finding guards to play like he wants them to. In fact i don't think I can name one other than Hoffarber who makes up for his lack of quickness with smart play.

If this is the case it may be pretty hard for him to find a go to guy that gets you the key buckets with the game on the line. Last year in the latter half Joseph became that guy, when Tubby had no choice but to play him 35 minutes, but now he is back in the Tubby doghouse and has regressed.
 

thanks

Thanks to those who have offered some help in my understanding of what the heck is going on. I appreciate it.

I also thank GW for not yelling at me for my typo...

every time regardless of what low post player your are doubling

That was meant to be you are doubling.

:)
 

Section201 said:
HELP. I need somebody to explain the benefits of automatically "helping", or doubling a low post guy when it means leaving your man wide open setting up on the three point line.

From this mornings Strib Blake is quoted.

"It's everyone getting scored on, so I think guys have to help more ... just play intense the whole 35 seconds on the shot clock," Hoffarber said.

It seems to me there is too much "helping" going on already!

I can see doubling selectively but to do it nearly every time regardless of what low post player your are doubling on or who you are leaving wide open seems "unwise" to me.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have seen some Gopher defender wildly rushing at an opponent shooting an uncontested three as if the visual disturbance three to five feet away will deter the shooter.

If we are going to play man to man why don't we try to stay with our man?

Many teams have multiple players shooting 40% plus from threes so it does not make sense to me to purposely leave them undefended.

I know there are some knowledgeable hoops folks out there. Please explain this to me.

:confused:
Click to expand...

The issue with your post is that helping does NOT equal doubling. It means just that, HELPING. If you have ever played basketball, if your guy beats you or you lose him, you yell "Help" and a teammate should rotate over while you rotate to the guy nearest you (that wasn't originally your man) that is likely what Blake is talking about. Guys are losing people on the perimeter or getting beat off the dribble, and no one is helping when that happens. You have to help and rotate quick enough though that no one gets left open.

So again, help defense does not equal a double teaming.

And also, I am sure they ARE trying to stay with their man. In any sport, offense has the advantage in man to man because they know what they are going to do while the defense has to guess what they are going to do. Why do you think NFL teams don't play strictly man to man?
 



The Truth said:
Study the Ball Line Defense and Tubby's history and you'll see this is pretty much his SOP.

The problem with the Ball Line is that is was designed by J.D. Barnett for a game that didn't have the three point shot. It can be effective but it takes a group of extremely long, athletic, quick defenders who are smart enough to handle the perimeter rotations. It also helps if they're experienced. Even then you can still get burnt. That's why it will always get killed by teams that can reverse the ball quickly and crisply.
Click to expand...

Tubby is noted as a defensive coach despite your personal dislike for him.

He wins 71% of his (career) games with the defensive strategy you don't like. He ranks 15th (in career W-L % record) among active Div I coaches with it.
 

bga1 said:
So Truth - if this defense indeed requires experience and Tubby is a defensive coach first and foremost- did Tubby have trouble putting frosh on the court at Kentucky? It seems here at Minnesota- he has had a hard time playing young guards and wings (which appear to be the more complicated assignments in this defense). I have noticed several young players over the past few years actually appear to lose confidence because of their defensive mistakes. So far in his tenure here, the biggest problem Tubby has had is finding guards to play like he wants them to. In fact i don't think I can name one other than Hoffarber who makes up for his lack of quickness with smart play.

If this is the case it may be pretty hard for him to find a go to guy that gets you the key buckets with the game on the line. Last year in the latter half Joseph became that guy, when Tubby had no choice but to play him 35 minutes, but now he is back in the Tubby doghouse and has regressed.
Click to expand...

I'll answer for The Not-So-Truthful one.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/players.html

Tubby played Desmond Allison and Tayshaun Prince as frosh. Keith Bogans and Marvin Stone. Gerald Fitch and Jason Parker. Chuck Hayes. Randolph Morris and Rajon Rondo. Derrick Jasper. Jodie Meeks. (Starters, at least part-time)

And Jules Camara. Cliff Hawkins. Joe Crawford. Ramel Bradley. Kelenna Azubuike. (As reserves)
 

Help, I need somebody,
Help, not just anybody,
Help, you know I need someone, help.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, get my feet back on the ground,
Won't you please, please help me?

And now my life has changed in oh so many ways,
My independence seems to vanish in the haze.
But every now and then I feel so insecure,
I know that I just need you like I've never done before.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, get my feet back on the ground,
Won't you please, please help me.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, get my feet back on the ground,
Won't you please, please help me, help me, help me, oh.
 

I think what Hoffarber said is fine because help defense (as others on this thread have said) is different than doubling. However, a lot of the time when we double it gets guys of position to help so guards are given wide open looks from the corners and we get stuck in mismatches (Hoffarber guarding a post, Sampson on a PG) and it is costing us points. I was thinking about who is an athletic, big guard and we have Rodney. He can get out on shooters and tip/block/contest shots without being right on the guy but no one else can.

I dont get why the Gophers always double the post, especially when the guys they double aren't Jared Sullinger type players. I would be fine doubling him and making someone else beat us...but when its a 6'7" post from South Dakota St. we dont need to double. Quit having the guards do it on every post entry and when they decide to it will be more effective. Basically the post players know the double is coming so they locate the open man and give him the ball. If someone does close the ball swings and leads to an open jump shot or someone going to the rim uncontested or contested late by a big, which gets them in foul trouble. Tubby needs to coach to the strength of this team which is interior play. Stop doubling every time on defense and quit forcing jump shots. Play a high-low with the post, make opposing teams double our bigs and get our shooter (we only have one) open. If someone besides Blakes guy doubles then kick it out, swing the ball and find a post on the weak side. If you watch the game on tape and you can slow it down and see the play 4 or 5 times you will see how easy it is to find open shooters against our man to man defense.

Also, the guards need to defend the post entry better (as Nolen did against Lucas) and force them out of their comfort zones on offense against our man to man defense.
 



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