Gophers in a lot better shape now than when Mason left

[Gold Rush]

I know I have been a harsh critic of Tim Brewster's coaching abilities the last few years but I will say this -- he left this team in MUCH better shape than when Glen Mason left. When Mason left, there was a severe lack of talent, especially on defense and I do not know of too many coaches who would have won many games with Brewster's first year team.

Right now though, Brewster left the team in pretty good shape. I think Coach Kill's #1 priority is to keep the team together and prevent the mass exodus you sometimes see with a new coach coming in because there ARE some good players here. You have to like the numbers you are seeing on both sides of the ball. I think QB Gray should be able to step in and run Kill's offense and he will have a number of good offensive linemen in front of him. I think there is good depth at RB and I will like seeing WR Green back in action again. On defense, we will have a lot of guys back and I think the line should be in fairly good shape. We do need some help in the secondary.

Finally, look at Brewster's recruiting for NEXT year. When he came in we had to write off an entire year's class because we did not have much and he was unable to recruit enough decent players in time. If Kill can keep most of what Brewster has coming in, we should be in decent shape and not have to write off this year's recruiting class. Again, Kill will have to do his best to keep the kids who have committed to honor that committment and then we can move on from there. Overall though, I think we are in very good shape here and hopefully Kill can keep all this together and we can move forward from there. I think Kill is a good coach and he knows what he is doing and we need to get behind him so we can move onward and upward!! GO GOPHERS!!!

 

[Seany]

I agree. There's a decent amount of talent on this team right now, and Brew's incoming class of recruits looked pretty good, so hopefully most if not all of those guys will still want to come to Minnesota.

After reading that Coach Kill had had approximately 6 hours sleep in the prior three days, I was just thinking last night about how much damned hard work it takes to be a college football coach, I mean it is fricken tough and there is no rest for the weary at all (unless you're Glen Mason. He was all about resting and coasting and taking it easy). But Mr. Kill has got to get right on recruiting immediately, not to mention staff decisions which are also a pressing priority, he has to begin familiarizing himself with his new team and surroundings, begin the interaction with MN high school coaches and just all the countless obligations and responsibilities that being a major college football coach entails. And that's just the football stuff, he also of course has to deal with the multiple facets and stresses of moving himself and his family from Dekalb, ILL to the Twin Cities, and it's just like dang. I get exhausted just thinking about it.

I hope he gets some decent rest at some point soon. Once his staff is in place, that should make things a hell of a lot easier on him, as at that point he can start to delegate things and share the workload.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

It's really not that close.

We are returning almost our entire 2-deep on both offense and defense.

 

[Gold Rush]

Exactly, Bob. I think you have to be excited when you see that - we are actually looking pretty good talent-wise. Now I am not saying we are going to the Rose Bowl next year or anything, but I will say that if Kill can just keep these kids around, he will be in a lot better shape than when Brewster first got here. He isn't starting out at Step 1 like Brewster had to do, but he is starting out at Step 3 or 4 and that should definitely help.

Also, keep in mind that Kill has a whole extra month to work on recruiting than when Brewster first started. That should help save the recruiting class and maybe he can snag a couple more that will help us at the same time.

 

[metrolax]

The big difference is that Mason recruited to his own program, with his unique preferences,
strengths and limitations. What he had at the end of 2006 going into 2007 would have been just fine, provided he was still coaching or if the next coach installed similar systems (if that were to
happen, why make a change?).

When Brew came in, he wanted everything whitewashed- coaching staff, systems, everything.
He seemed to throw the holdover players under the bus in favor of recruiting new ones, such as the
trip to Florida his first year when the staff deserted the team at the airport to recruit, and the team played the next day like it.

Still, Brew went out and recruited the best athletes he could, period. Many had trouble finding their
way past admissions (which happens more frequently when you aim a bit higher) but others still
have stuck and some have shown some promise, although it took a little bit of time for that come out. When you recruit like he did, it is not too difficult to visualize a new coach being able to better work with this group and adapt them to his system than Mason's.

The biggest thing is the stadium, though- that's the biggest advantage.

For fun, let's compare a Jerry Kill hire in 2007 with today......

Today, I anticipate Kill making every effort to incorporate every player currently on the squad
into his program and finding a way to make it work. He'll take the talent available and will
treat these current players with the same respect that he does his own recruits. Only
he'll make them better because of his emphasis on hard work and strong fundamentals.
His systems will not be hard to adapt to because they won't be so unfamiliar to what's been done before. A little more variances in offense, but nothing they cannot handle.

A Kill hire in 2007.....Kill would have made every effort to incorporate every player on that
team into his program, finding a way to make each player relevant. He would have treated the
Mason players with the same respect that he treats his own recruits. Mason's players would have
adapted far better to Kill's regime than Brewster's because the change would not have been so stark, and Kill would have built upon the good that was already there. There's no way Kill would have gone 1-11 in 2007. No way.

So, whether its in better shape now or then we'll never know, but I think that Kill is the kind
of coach who could have made either situation work, and I think that's a valid comparison.

 

[Gold Rush]

Metrolax -- I will give you the fact that Kill's team doesn't go 1-11 if his first year is in 2007 and he gets a lot more out of his team than Brewster did. Nobody can argue that even though we can never be sure. But I will definitely stand by my statements that there is more talent on this team right now than when Brewster took over. As stated earlier, the team brings back almost it's entire two deep and there is a lot more speed especially on defense. There is a lot more depth on both sides of the ball and there is a lot of quality, too. It's all good -- I am especially interested in seeing who gets better and in some cases a lot better from having this guy coach instead of Tim Brewster. We may get some very nice surprises next year.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The big difference is that Mason recruited to his own program, with his unique preferences,
strengths and limitations. What he had at the end of 2006 going into 2007 would have been just fine, provided he was still coaching or if the next coach installed similar systems (if that were to
happen, why make a change?).

When Brew came in, he wanted everything whitewashed- coaching staff, systems, everything.
He seemed to throw the holdover players under the bus in favor of recruiting new ones, such as the
trip to Florida his first year when the staff deserted the team at the airport to recruit, and the team played the next day like it.

Still, Brew went out and recruited the best athletes he could, period. Many had trouble finding their
way past admissions (which happens more frequently when you aim a bit higher) but others still
have stuck and some have shown some promise, although it took a little bit of time for that come out. When you recruit like he did, it is not too difficult to visualize a new coach being able to better work with this group and adapt them to his system than Mason's.

The biggest thing is the stadium, though- that's the biggest advantage.

For fun, let's compare a Jerry Kill hire in 2007 with today......

Today, I anticipate Kill making every effort to incorporate every player currently on the squad
into his program and finding a way to make it work. He'll take the talent available and will
treat these current players with the same respect that he does his own recruits. Only
he'll make them better because of his emphasis on hard work and strong fundamentals.
His systems will not be hard to adapt to because they won't be so unfamiliar to what's been done before. A little more variances in offense, but nothing they cannot handle.

A Kill hire in 2007.....Kill would have made every effort to incorporate every player on that
team into his program, finding a way to make each player relevant. He would have treated the
Mason players with the same respect that he treats his own recruits. Mason's players would have
adapted far better to Kill's regime than Brewster's because the change would not have been so stark, and Kill would have built upon the good that was already there. There's no way Kill would have gone 1-11 in 2007. No way.

So, whether its in better shape now or then we'll never know, but I think that Kill is the kind
of coach who could have made either situation work, and I think that's a valid comparison.

Kill is going to come in and pretty much not have many (if any) holdovers either. That is pretty standard for college football, especially in the BCS conferences.

I do agree with you that Mason wouldn't have gone 1-11, but I do think without a doubt that it would have been Mason's worst year in a long time and we wouldn't have made a bowl game. Mason's other teams weren't so completely empty.

Essentially Mason left 4-5 guys who took any snaps on offense, and 6 games who took any snaps on defense. That is remarkably low. Mason did a good job of molding guys into his system, but the cupboard wasn't this bare since the early Mason years.

We returned maybe 2 starters on offense (Wheelwright and Pinnix) and 4 starters on defense (Barber, Sherels, S. Davis, Hightower), and the rest was really empty. Look at the amount of Fr who who were on the 2 deeps that season (Bennett, Weber, Burris, Alford, Herndon, Spry, Collado, Theret, Curtis Thomas, Duran Love), and the rest were pretty much SO's. That is the definition of a bare cupboard.

 

[oak_street1981]

[Essentially Mason left 4-5 guys who took any snaps on offense, and 6 games who took any snaps on defense. That is remarkably low. Mason did a good job of molding guys into his system, but the cupboard wasn't this bare since the early Mason years.

We returned maybe 2 starters on offense (Wheelwright and Pinnix) and 4 starters on defense (Barber, Sherels, S. Davis, Hightower), and the rest was really empty. Look at the amount of Fr who who were on the 2 deeps that season (Bennett, Weber, Burris, Alford, Herndon, Spry, Collado, Theret, Curtis Thomas, Duran Love), and the rest were pretty much SO's. That is the definition of a bare cupboard.[/QUOTE]

Mason would have won six or seven games, including all the NC games. Indiana, Purdue, and Northwestern were very attainable wins as well. He also tended to beat Illinois.

He had Daniels, Jones, and the guys who were thrown off the team coming back. Who knows what would have happened with those guys.

He had Jones, the all Confernence linebacker now at Michigan State coming in with at least two running backs who might have produced based upon previous results.

He had a decent offensive line ready to go with players who Gordy Shaw would have had ready. Brinkhouse and Shidell, were especially good, and Tavale had been OK under Mason.

Brewster god absolutely nothing out of Valentine, who Mason would have found a role for.

Pinnix would have had a very good year and the receivers were good enough with Adam Weber coming in to put up big offensive numbers.

 

[50PoundHead]

I don't know how Mason would have done. I do laugh though at the assertion that Pinnix would have been better. Wha? Does Mason have magical healing powers that would have taken care of Pinnix' recurring turf toe issue?

I like Justin Valentine, but he had the gained the same number of yards (42) in his junior and senior years and caught one less pass in one year under Brewster (8) than he did in three years under Mason. Maybe Mason would have used him differently his senior year given Pinnix' injury issues, but it likely wouldn't have made much of a difference.

WRs would have been Wheelwright and Decker with only freshmen for depth.

As for the Jones, Massey, Daniels, and Jones situation, would you have wanted Mason to keep those guys around?

Neither side can prove the negative here. I think it would have been a down year, but Mason might have been able to net five or six wins.

As for what Kill is inheriting, I don't think there's any question that there's more quality depth in terms of athletic ability, but that will still have to translate on the field.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

[Essentially Mason left 4-5 guys who took any snaps on offense, and 6 games who took any snaps on defense. That is remarkably low. Mason did a good job of molding guys into his system, but the cupboard wasn't this bare since the early Mason years.

We returned maybe 2 starters on offense (Wheelwright and Pinnix) and 4 starters on defense (Barber, Sherels, S. Davis, Hightower), and the rest was really empty. Look at the amount of Fr who who were on the 2 deeps that season (Bennett, Weber, Burris, Alford, Herndon, Spry, Collado, Theret, Curtis Thomas, Duran Love), and the rest were pretty much SO's. That is the definition of a bare cupboard.

Mason would have won six or seven games, including all the NC games. Indiana, Purdue, and Northwestern were very attainable wins as well. He also tended to beat Illinois.

He had Daniels, Jones, and the guys who were thrown off the team coming back. Who knows what would have happened with those guys.

He had Jones, the all Confernence linebacker now at Michigan State coming in with at least two running backs who might have produced based upon previous results.

He had a decent offensive line ready to go with players who Gordy Shaw would have had ready. Brinkhouse and Shidell, were especially good, and Tavale had been OK under Mason.

Brewster god absolutely nothing out of Valentine, who Mason would have found a role for.

Pinnix would have had a very good year and the receivers were good enough with Adam Weber coming in to put up big offensive numbers.[/QUOTE]


You think Mason would have had the same year in 2007 as he had in 2006? Even though he lost Cupito, Pinnex (for most of the year), Logan Payne, Spaeth, 3 CBs, 1 safety, 2 DL, 1 LB, 3 OL and replaced them all with freshman? Wow...that would have been his single best season as a coach.

It is really beside the point because Brew haters always turn this question into a Mason vs. Brew thing, the fact is that the 2007 team did not have Greg Jones, Alex Daniels, Keith Massey, nor Dominic Jones. They weren't on the team. So when comparing how stocked the cupboard was, you can't simply add them.

You also can't assume Pinnix would have had a good season. He was injured in the 2nd game of the year! Do you think Brew did some knee weakening exercises that derailed Amir? Obviously not.

The other RB we had was the true freshman version of Bennett. I think we can all agree that the RS-Sr version of Bennett is probably a better player.

Lets not make this about Mason vs. Brew, simply look at the depth and talent on the roster coming back from those two seasons (throw the coaches aside).

In 2007, we returned about 15% of a 3 Big 10 win football team.
In 2011, we are returning about 90% of a 2 Big 10 win football team.

It's not close.

 

[oak_street1981]

That incident with Dominic Jones happened well after Brewster was hired. We cannot assume that it would have happened if Mason were coach. You cannot assume that Pinnix, and everything else that happened under Brewster would have happened under Mason. Alex Daniels was good enough to have an impact at Cincinnati at DE.

Tommy Becker, a second LB, the Receiver Fischer, and a number of players left the team after Mason was fired.

#53 Jones at Michigan State would have been a starter from day one.

Cupito wasn't great, Weber would have done well enought with his strong arm and running ability in the run heavy offense, with the play action threat. Decker and Wheelwright would have had big years.

Pinnix wasn't the only RB, they had a decent one coming in from Cincinnati (Sherer?) and a second one that I cannot remember. They both left. Valentine would have carried the ball, and it is possible that Mason would have given the kid from Oakdale, Thomas a chance to show he could still run.

Mason would have won 5,6 or 7 games for sure.

People keep denegrating the talent from 2006, 2007, then act surpised when someone counters it. The 2006 team beat Indiana 55-7, beat MSU on the road, beat Iowa, then managed to get a 38-7 lead in Tempe.

Mason had enough to pound the cupcakes and win a couple more in 2007.

Mason is long gone but the talent he had coming back in 2006 wasn't especially relevent to anything happening today. Jerry Kill can coach and things will get better, that is all that is really worth talking about.

Looking back one final time; Gary Russell flunking out, combined with Maturi's agenda to fire Mason and get his signature hire done, had as much to do with what happened the last few years as anything else.

 

[metrolax]

Guys, the only way the assertion can be made is within the context of who the next coach is. That's all.

Mason had specific players for a specific system. Brew recruited more athletes with higher
star ratings. Its only natural to assume that Coach Kill inherits more of those types of athletes
than did Brewster.

However, that doesn't always equate to better football players. It depends on whether they
fit into the system, the coach, circumstances.

Its a lot more complex a question to answer than it seems.

 

[50PoundHead]

oakstreet, you're right that we can't assume anything, but what makes you think the Dominic Jones incident wouldn't have happened had Mason been around? Did Mason make bedcheck calls? Same goes for Pinnix. Did Brewster start dropping cement blocks on his feet during spring practice?

metrolax, I agree with your last point and I think I said something similar in my last sentence.

 

[oak_street1981]

oakstreet, you're right that we can't assume anything, but what makes you think the Dominic Jones incident wouldn't have happened had Mason been around? Did Mason make bedcheck calls? Same goes for Pinnix. Did Brewster start dropping cement blocks on his feet during spring practice?

metrolax, I agree with your last point and I think I said something similar in my last sentence.

Well, I agree that there is more talent around relative to 2006 and Coach Kill and his staff will be able to take full advantage of it. Not to sound like Gold04, but I expect 5,6, or 7 wins next year, only because I think that much of our new Coach. If he wins 4 I will not be angry either.

If Brewster were still coach, it would not make that much of a difference if there was a big gap between 2007 and 2010 talent because he flat out could not coach. Brewster might have won the Big Ten if he was given an NFL team to play against college teams, but I doubt it. He was very inept in al phases of being a HC.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Well, I agree that there is more talent around relative to 2006 and Coach Kill and his staff will be able to take full advantage of it. Not to sound like Gold04, but I expect 5,6, or 7 wins next year, only because I think that much of our new Coach. If he wins 4 I will not be angry either.

If Brewster were still coach, it would not make that much of a difference if there was a big gap between 2007 and 2010 talent because he flat out could not coach. Brewster might have won the Big Ten if he was given an NFL team to play against college teams, but I doubt it. He was very inept in al phases of being a HC.

I agree that Brewster was inept at everything to do with coaching football (ok recruiter), but your way too caught up in the entire Mason vs. Brew debate.

For the sake of this article, you need to take the 2007 team for what it was (not what it might have been under Mason).

The 2007 team went into the season with:
RS-Freshman QB and no depth behind him
Quality SR. RB and no depth behind it
3 OL who had played at all, and FR/RS-FR behind it
1 Veteran WR and a talented SO WR and NO depth behind it
An ok TE, probably the worst TE at MN in 10 seasons
2 new DT and no depth
1 new DE
4 FR DBs who were in way over their head....(out of the 6 who played at all)

That was not a deep team. I admit that Brew didn't do the team ANY favors, but that was a very untalented team going into 2007. Some of the reasons had nothing to do with Brew or Mason (Pinnix getting hurt, Dominic Jones/Daniels incident, Jamal Harris leaving, late firing so we couldn't add JuCo and lost some quality recruits (JJ Watt and Greg Jones).

So if you remove yourself from the Mason v. Brew debate and just look at the team that went into the 2007 season and compare it with the team that is going into the 2010 season, it is not comparable. We had some talent but absolutely no depth. Injuries to guys like Pinnix and Jay Thomas were absolutely devastating.

PS: I completely understand that many players were lost because of reasons outside of anyone's control. I wasn't blaming Mason, don't worry. But the loss of Tommy Becker, Sherrer, Jamal Harris, Greg Jones, flunking out of Marcel Jones, Massey/Daniels/Jones incident also played a gigantic role in us having very little depth. Those aren't Mason's or Brew's faults. If Keanon Cooper gets kicked out of school in Feb, are you going to blame Kill?

The fact remains, when you look at the 2007 Golden Gopher football team for a VARIETY of reasons, the team was completely depleted. You can blame Brew, Maturi, Mason and the guys themselves. They probably all deserve a bit of blame.