Gary Parrish: Gophers one of five "programs on the rise"

[BleedGopher]

Minnesota

Why it's here: I was skeptical when Minnesota tossed a life line to Tubby Smith and pulled him out of Kentucky, if only because I didn't believe a man who was struggling to recruit at UK would be successful recruiting at Minnesota. Clearly, I was wrong. Smith secured two Top 35 prospects from the Class of 2009 who should help Minnesota make the NCAA tournament for the second consecutive season, this after making the NCAA tournament just once in the previous nine years.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12352315

Go Gophers!!

 

[centerofmn]

Parrish usually knows what he is talking about too. This is a good sign that the Gophers can get this kind of positive press before even playing a game this year.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

Minnesota

Why it's here: I was skeptical when Minnesota tossed a life line to Tubby Smith and pulled him out of Kentucky, if only because I didn't believe a man who was struggling to recruit at UK would be successful recruiting at Minnesota. Clearly, I was wrong. Smith secured two Top 35 prospects from the Class of 2009 who should help Minnesota make the NCAA tournament for the second consecutive season, this after making the NCAA tournament just once in the previous nine years.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12352315

Go Gophers!!

Parrish inaccurately portrays Tubby's recruiting at UK.

He signed #1 class overall (3 McDonalds A-A) in 2004. He signed #1 JuCo recruit in 2005. He signed Top 15 rated class in 2006 (3 Top 50 rated players). He was going to sign 2 McDonalds A-A (Patterson, Lucas) in 2007 class. He had a verbal commitment from MI Mr B-ball and Parade A-A Draymond Green for 2008 class.

Tubby was/is a good recruiter everywhere he's coached.

 

[gophernut]

FOT - I love the way you have contributed to this board and you are always full of incredible information. However, while Tubby did a great job of recruiting by almost every programs standards he did not meet the expectations of media members that cover and admire Kentucky basketball. What is expected of Kentucky is that they always will get the pick of the very best, and while in the end Tubby ended up with some great classes, it never seemed like the had the same type of draw that a Duke or NC had, even though he did beat them in recruiting at times. Tubby, never had the sort of "sex appeal" to match the expectations of appeal of the Kentucky program (something they have now) I still think he is a top 10 coach, but if he could have recruited like Calapari he would have won national titles ever year he was there. That is why he gets the rep he does from the media, even though i agree with you he does not deserve it. Just my two cents - and once again FOT i appreciate the time, your voice and your committment to Tubby and the gophers

 

[GopherinPhilly]

FOT - I love the way you have contributed to this board and you are always full of incredible information. However, while Tubby did a great job of recruiting by almost every programs standards he did not meet the expectations of media members that cover and admire Kentucky basketball. What is expected of Kentucky is that they always will get the pick of the very best, and while in the end Tubby ended up with some great classes, it never seemed like the had the same type of draw that a Duke or NC had, even though he did beat them in recruiting at times. Tubby, never had the sort of "sex appeal" to match the expectations of appeal of the Kentucky program (something they have now) I still think he is a top 10 coach, but if he could have recruited like Calapari he would have won national titles ever year he was there. That is why he gets the rep he does from the media, even though i agree with you he does not deserve it. Just my two cents - and once again FOT i appreciate the time, your voice and your committment to Tubby and the gophers

First off...great post...secondly, I agree. [Except the Calipari thing...if he recruited like Calipari, he would have won one national title and left the program in ruins and on NCAA suspension].

Tubby is classy and honest and there is no place for that kind of man in Kentucky Basketball.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

FOT - I love the way you have contributed to this board and you are always full of incredible information. However, while Tubby did a great job of recruiting by almost every programs standards he did not meet the expectations of media members that cover and admire Kentucky basketball. What is expected of Kentucky is that they always will get the pick of the very best, and while in the end Tubby ended up with some great classes, it never seemed like the had the same type of draw that a Duke or NC had, even though he did beat them in recruiting at times. Tubby, never had the sort of "sex appeal" to match the expectations of appeal of the Kentucky program (something they have now) I still think he is a top 10 coach, but if he could have recruited like Calapari he would have won national titles ever year he was there. That is why he gets the rep he does from the media, even though i agree with you he does not deserve it. Just my two cents - and once again FOT i appreciate the time, your voice and your committment to Tubby and the gophers

I have a different viewpoint.

Tubby missed out on return trip(s) to FF(s) at UK. Had he made 1 or 2 FF, UK fans wouldn't care who he recruited.

Kentucky didn't get their pick of the best under Pitino, either. But he made 3 FF so UK fans were happy regardless.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

First off...great post...secondly, I agree. [Except the Calipari thing...if he recruited like Calipari, he would have won one national title and left the program in ruins and on NCAA suspension].

Tubby is classy and honest and there is no place for that kind of man in Kentucky Basketball.

Just some facts.

Tubby signed 7 McDonalds A-A in 9 years and was going to sign 2 more in his 10th year.

Pitino signed 5 McDonalds A-A in 8 years.

Tubby signed one #1 class, two Top 5 classes, two Top 10 classes, and three Top 20 classes in 9 years. He was going to sign another Top 10 class in his 10th year.

Pitino signed one #1 class, one Top 5 class, one Top 10 class, and one Top 20 class in 8 years.

Why is it that so many salivate over Pitino's recruiting at UK but not Tubby's recruits?

Joe Hall signed more McDonalds A-A (16) in 9 years (first named in 1977, through 1985) than Pitino and Tubby (12 combined) in 17 years. He is the best recruiter in UK history.

 

[gophernut]

FOT - you and I are speaking of different things - Tubby by the numbers was great, I would say even in recruiting. The thing he lacked in recruiting and even as a coach was that "sex appeal" factor. Tubby is just class - he is not the "car salesman" type of coach Pitino and/or Calapari are. I am not speaking poorly of either of these two (though I could), as much as saying Kentucky feels like it is a Ferrari and it takes a certain type of person to drive that type of vechile well, something I felt Tubby was and is not. Kentucky really doesn't care if having a Ferrari type of driver means getting places fast and having terrible crashes (which they have done and will do again). They want to have a type of coach that bring them the attention a Ferrari deserves. Tubby was not about attention towards himself, just putting out great teams and helping mold great players into great people. While I would rather have Tubby vs. Pitino, Calapari, the type of person and coach he is vs. them brings about the perception of his lack of appeal in recruiting. Image means a lot in a lot of places and Tubby's image is what is different and gives him the rep in recruiting by media and Kentucky and that is why facts don't make much of a difference in this discussion.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

FOT - you and I are speaking of different things - Tubby by the numbers was great, I would say even in recruiting. The thing he lacked in recruiting and even as a coach was that "sex appeal" factor. Tubby is just class - he is not the "car salesman" type of coach Pitino and/or Calapari are. I am not speaking poorly of either of these two (though I could), as much as saying Kentucky feels like it is a Ferrari and it takes a certain type of person to drive that type of vechile well, something I felt Tubby was and is not. Kentucky really doesn't care if having a Ferrari type of driver means getting places fast and having terrible crashes (which they have done and will do again). They want to have a type of coach that bring them the attention a Ferrari deserves. Tubby was not about attention towards himself, just putting out great teams and helping mold great players into great people. While I would rather have Tubby vs. Pitino, Calapari, the type of person and coach he is vs. them brings about the perception of his lack of appeal in recruiting. Image means a lot in a lot of places and Tubby's image is what is different and gives him the rep in recruiting by media and Kentucky and that is why facts don't make much of a difference in this discussion.

Again, I disagree. Results (ultimately FF) matter to UK fans. Had 2003 and/or 2005 resulted in FF appearances, most UK fans would have been happy with results. As it was, many were not.

Tubby drove the UK basketball "vehicle" very well. He missed the FF "ramp" though.

 

[The-Real-Truth]

Just some facts.

Tubby signed 7 McDonalds A-A in 9 years and was going to sign 2 more in his 10th year.

Pitino signed 5 McDonalds A-A in 8 years.

Tubby signed one #1 class, two Top 5 classes, two Top 10 classes, and three Top 20 classes in 9 years. He was going to sign another Top 10 class in his 10th year.

Pitino signed one #1 class, one Top 5 class, one Top 10 class, and one Top 20 class in 8 years.

Why is it that so many salivate over Pitino's recruiting at UK but not Tubby's recruits?

Joe Hall signed more McDonalds A-A (16) in 9 years (first named in 1977, through 1985) than Pitino and Tubby (12 combined) in 17 years. He is the best recruiter in UK history.

I am not sure if this is related to the topic. I just want to let people on this board know that Tubby was the only coach that competed well with Uk when Pitino won NC. Uk had the hardest time beating UG. That's why Tubby landed the UK job. I agree with FOT, Parish is not fair to Tubby. Tubby does his best when he is not under pressure. Now that expectation is going high in MN, I hope that Tubby-bashing would never start. Let him do his job and stop the criticism. I read on the other posts about Tubby's substitution pattern. What is this? All the sudden, we all have become basketball coaches. On the other posts, we read about the none-conference games. People, be patient and let the man do his magic. We didn't get Barnes from Iowa? Who cares. Lets have fun watching our team. Lets go to the Barn on Friday and support the Gophers. I have to drive for 2 hours to get there and can hardly wait.

By the end of the season, we'll see the publicity that Gophers get. Call me crazy, but I see MSU and Purdue choking this year. Too much pressure on them to deliver.

Go Gophers.

 

[SelectionSunday]

"Tubby does his best when he is not under pressure."

Just my 2 cents. ... when is there ever NOT PRESSURE when you're the head basketball coach at the University of Kentucky?

Tubby handled the fishbowl at UK just fine. Billy Gillispie?. ... not so much. Tubby just finally had enough of it.

I'm not worried how Tubby will handle increased expectations at the U of M. Am confident we'll be in good hands whether the Gophers are a solid, but flawed Big 10 club (like this season), or if they're being pegged as possible Elite 8/Final 4 material (maybe 2010-11?).

 

[Blizzard]

Tubby does his best when he is not under pressure. Now that expectation is going high in MN, I hope that Tubby-bashing would never start. Let him do his job and stop the criticism. I read on the other posts about Tubby's substitution pattern. What is this? All the sudden, we all have become basketball coaches. On the other posts, we read about the none-conference games. People, be patient and let the man do his magic.

I guess I'm not real worried about this either. Unless the Gophers go to a Final Four or win a National championship, they will always take a backseat to our other pro sports. Always. Is there any Gopher hype that could have outdone what Favre or the Twins have had going on lately? I doubt it. And I think this is a good thing. There is always going a fanatical fringe of Gopher BB fans but nothing like in Kentucky or other places where any type of BB news, good or otherwise, is big news.

 

[bga1]

I guess I'm not real worried about this either. Unless the Gophers go to a Final Four or win a National championship, they will always take a backseat to our other pro sports. Always. Is there any Gopher hype that could have outdone what Favre or the Twins have had going on lately? I doubt it. And I think this is a good thing. There is always going a fanatical fringe of Gopher BB fans but nothing like in Kentucky or other places where any type of BB news, good or otherwise, is big news.

Considering how the Wild and TWolves look this year, the Gopher BB team could well hold the attention of the entire town in a good way this winter (once Vikings are done).

 

[anonymous]

I fall somewhat in the middle on this.

Tubby had a couple of bad breaks at UK in terms of getting to the Final Four. They were a basket away when they lost in 2 OT to Michigan State in '05. One point over 50 minutes is a tough break. In 2003, UK was very good, but ran into a very hot Dwyane Wade in the regional final at Metrodome.

If either of those games go in a different direction, Tubby's legacy at UK is very different.

On the topic of recruiting, Tubby made a clear decision not to go after one-and-done players. Because of that, Tubby's recruiting classes were more likely to feature depth than star power. It seems as if Cat fans equate good recruiting with teams filled with future NBA players. Tubby's teams didn't have that kind of talent. I will say that Tubby had good teams and he had very good players, but he didn't have very many first round draft picks.

Pitino was at UK from 89-97 and he recruited the following first round picks: Jamal Mashburn, Roderick Rhodes, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty, Tony Delk, Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Nazr Mohammed.

Jamal Magloire and Scott Padgett were both first round pick who were recruited by Pitino, but largely coached by Tubby so they kind of goes in both categories.

First round picks who were recruited by Tubby: Michael Bradley (who started at UK and then transferred to Villanova), Tayshaun Prince, Rajon Rondo. Tubby deserves credit for Randolph Morris who wasn't a first round pick because he somehow ended up as a free agent after declaring for the draft and going back to school.

Cat fans are often an unreasonable lot. But if you watched UK through the Pitino era and saw all these future NBA guys and then then you watched the Tubby era, I can understand why Tubby's recruiting was questioned/criticized. I don't think Tubby's recruiting was bad, but he had a different philosophy in terms of recruiting.

I

 

[Blizzard]

Considering how the Wild and TWolves look this year, the Gopher BB team could well hold the attention of the entire town in a good way this winter (once Vikings are done).

I completely agree and I think they really became the " media darlings " last winter and I really, really, hope they do again. But, I think Tubby escapes that single minded focus of being the only game in town. Even though the Wolves and Wild really suck ( so far ) if they were winning or if the Wolves would be coming back from a very successful season, the Gophers would take a backseat to them in the news, unless they were coming off a Final Four or other very newsworthy season.

 

[The-Real-Truth]

I fall somewhat in the middle on this.

Tubby had a couple of bad breaks at UK in terms of getting to the Final Four. They were a basket away when they lost in 2 OT to Michigan State in '05. One point over 50 minutes is a tough break. In 2003, UK was very good, but ran into a very hot Dwyane Wade in the regional final at Metrodome.

If either of those games go in a different direction, Tubby's legacy at UK is very different.

On the topic of recruiting, Tubby made a clear decision not to go after one-and-done players. Because of that, Tubby's recruiting classes were more likely to feature depth than star power. It seems as if Cat fans equate good recruiting with teams filled with future NBA players. Tubby's teams didn't have that kind of talent. I will say that Tubby had good teams and he had very good players, but he didn't have very many first round draft picks.

Pitino was at UK from 89-97 and he recruited the following first round picks: Jamal Mashburn, Roderick Rhodes, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty, Tony Delk, Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Nazr Mohammed.

Jamal Magloire and Scott Padgett were both first round pick who were recruited by Pitino, but largely coached by Tubby so they kind of goes in both categories.

First round picks who were recruited by Tubby: Michael Bradley (who started at UK and then transferred to Villanova), Tayshaun Prince, Rajon Rondo. Tubby deserves credit for Randolph Morris who wasn't a first round pick because he somehow ended up as a free agent after declaring for the draft and going back to school.

Cat fans are often an unreasonable lot. But if you watched UK through the Pitino era and saw all these future NBA guys and then then you watched the Tubby era, I can understand why Tubby's recruiting was questioned/criticized. I don't think Tubby's recruiting was bad, but he had a different philosophy in terms of recruiting.

I

Well said.

 

[Maximus]

Just some facts.

Tubby signed 7 McDonalds A-A in 9 years and was going to sign 2 more in his 10th year.

Pitino signed 5 McDonalds A-A in 8 years.

Tubby signed one #1 class, two Top 5 classes, two Top 10 classes, and three Top 20 classes in 9 years. He was going to sign another Top 10 class in his 10th year.

Pitino signed one #1 class, one Top 5 class, one Top 10 class, and one Top 20 class in 8 years.

So Pitino had more success with inferior players thus is a better coach than Tubby?

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

I fall somewhat in the middle on this.

Tubby had a couple of bad breaks at UK in terms of getting to the Final Four. They were a basket away when they lost in 2 OT to Michigan State in '05. One point over 50 minutes is a tough break. In 2003, UK was very good, but ran into a very hot Dwyane Wade in the regional final at Metrodome.

If either of those games go in a different direction, Tubby's legacy at UK is very different.

On the topic of recruiting, Tubby made a clear decision not to go after one-and-done players. Because of that, Tubby's recruiting classes were more likely to feature depth than star power. It seems as if Cat fans equate good recruiting with teams filled with future NBA players. Tubby's teams didn't have that kind of talent. I will say that Tubby had good teams and he had very good players, but he didn't have very many first round draft picks.

Pitino was at UK from 89-97 and he recruited the following first round picks: Jamal Mashburn, Roderick Rhodes, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty, Tony Delk, Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Nazr Mohammed.

Jamal Magloire and Scott Padgett were both first round pick who were recruited by Pitino, but largely coached by Tubby so they kind of goes in both categories.

First round picks who were recruited by Tubby: Michael Bradley (who started at UK and then transferred to Villanova), Tayshaun Prince, Rajon Rondo. Tubby deserves credit for Randolph Morris who wasn't a first round pick because he somehow ended up as a free agent after declaring for the draft and going back to school.

Cat fans are often an unreasonable lot. But if you watched UK through the Pitino era and saw all these future NBA guys and then then you watched the Tubby era, I can understand why Tubby's recruiting was questioned/criticized. I don't think Tubby's recruiting was bad, but he had a different philosophy in terms of recruiting.

I

Pitino never recruited a single 1 & Done player at UK either. He had two leave after 2 years (Walker, Mercer) and one leave after 3 years (Mashburn).

Tubby had one leave after 2 years (Rondo) and two leave after 3 years (Morris, Azubuike).

The great GREAT majority of Pitino's UK recruits were 4 year (even 5 year = redshirt) players.

The One & Done stuff is a red herring. UK has never had even one such player in the modern era.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

So Pitino had more success with inferior players thus is a better coach than Tubby?

Depends how you measure "success" and "inferior players" I guess. Pitino is a higher rated coach than Tubby (I guess) but OTS has won 5 of the last 7 meetings between the two coaches.

Pitino won 1 NCAA title at UK. Tubby won 1.
Pitino won 2 SEC titles at UK. Tubby won 5.
Pitino won 5 SECT events at UK. Tubby won 5.

In terms of WINNING things, Tubby 11 and Pitino 8.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

Well said.

Actually not so. Pitino took transfers (4 in 8 years). UK rarely did that. Tubby took 1. Hall take 1 (Macy) of any prominence. Sutton took 1.

Pitino took gambles on guys like Epps, Padgett, Nazr Mohammed, and others who were not rated very high. He made mistakes on guys like Toomer, Timberlake, and Oliver Simmons, too.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

"Tubby does his best when he is not under pressure."

Just my 2 cents. ... when is there ever NOT PRESSURE when you're the head basketball coach at the University of Kentucky?

Tubby handled the fishbowl at UK just fine. Billy Gillispie?. ... not so much. Tubby just finally had enough of it.

I'm not worried how Tubby will handle increased expectations at the U of M. Am confident we'll be in good hands whether the Gophers are a solid, but flawed Big 10 club (like this season), or if they're being pegged as possible Elite 8/Final 4 material (maybe 2010-11?).

Very well stated.

 

[anonymous]

FOT,

But you don't acknowledge the difference in the number of first round picks. That, IMHO, is why Cat fans felt Tubby didn't recruit well.

Also, the one-and-done thing wasn't nearly as prevalent during Pitino's tenure as Tubby's. You know that and you're smarter than that.

I, for the record, am not saying that Tubby's recruiting was bad at UK. I'm pointing out why some people there thought Tubby's recruiting was bad.

 

[The-Real-Truth]

FOT,

But you don't acknowledge the difference in the number of first round picks. That, IMHO, is why Cat fans felt Tubby didn't recruit well.

Also, the one-and-done thing wasn't nearly as prevalent during Pitino's tenure as Tubby's. You know that and you're smarter than that.

I, for the record, am not saying that Tubby's recruiting was bad at UK. I'm pointing out why some people there thought Tubby's recruiting was bad.

The players that you mentioned were 1st round picks but didn't last in NBA for too long. If it wasn't because of Pitino in Boston, Mercer would have never been drafted as number 6. Delk and Mac were mainly bench riders at NBA also. I think Cat fans were wrong if they evaluated Tubby's performance based on 1st round players in NBA.

 

[jamiche]

I have a different viewpoint.

Tubby missed out on return trip(s) to FF(s) at UK. Had he made 1 or 2 FF, UK fans wouldn't care who he recruited.

Kentucky didn't get their pick of the best under Pitino, either. But he made 3 FF so UK fans were happy regardless.

The reason that Tubby didn't make it back to the FF is that he never was able to recruit the one or two great players that ended up at NC or Duke. He doesn't have to do that at the U because we are happy to get to the second or maybe even third round of the post season. Ironically, this may be the deepest team that he has ever coached. Not the best, the deepest.

The day he showed up he was several steps above any coach we've ever had. We are thrilled to have him and he is thrilled to not have to compete against the really big boys for the elite players. It's pretty close to a perfect marriage.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

FOT,

But you don't acknowledge the difference in the number of first round picks. That, IMHO, is why Cat fans felt Tubby didn't recruit well.

Also, the one-and-done thing wasn't nearly as prevalent during Pitino's tenure as Tubby's. You know that and you're smarter than that.

I, for the record, am not saying that Tubby's recruiting was bad at UK. I'm pointing out why some people there thought Tubby's recruiting was bad.

Rod Rhodes was undrafted at UK - he got drated out of USC.

Nazr Mohammed was hardly 1st round pick in 96 or 97 - he became one in 1998.

Ditto Scott Padgett (1999) and Jamaal Magloire (2000) - neither were 1st round picks in 1997. They got better later on.

I repeat, UK has never had 1 & Done player yet. It started in mid 1990's. Pitino never signed one at UK. And not many (if any) at Louisville either. He succeeded with veteran players at both schools.

 

[Friend Of Tubby]

The reason that Tubby didn't make it back to the FF is that he never was able to recruit the one or two great players that ended up at NC or Duke. He doesn't have to do that at the U because we are happy to get to the second or maybe even third round of the post season. Ironically, this may be the deepest team that he has ever coached. Not the best, the deepest.

The day he showed up he was several steps above any coach we've ever had. We are thrilled to have him and he is thrilled to not have to compete against the really big boys for the elite players. It's pretty close to a perfect marriage.

Don't agree with that. The 2003 and 2005 teams had great players. The 2002 team had even more great players than either of those.

 

[EG#9]

I could care less about Tubby Smith's record at Kentucky at this point. I am concerned with what he will do at Minnesota. So far, he's brought in two excellent recruiting classes and got us back where we belong (in the tournament) in his two years at Minnesota. The next step is being competitive for the Big Ten title and advancing in the NCAA tournament. I hope we are ready for that step in year 3.

 

[gopher7]

Minnesota

Why it's here: I was skeptical when Minnesota tossed a life line to Tubby Smith and pulled him out of Kentucky, if only because I didn't believe a man who was struggling to recruit at UK would be successful recruiting at Minnesota. Clearly, I was wrong. Smith secured two Top 35 prospects from the Class of 2009 who should help Minnesota make the NCAA tournament for the second consecutive season, this after making the NCAA tournament just once in the previous nine years.

Nice to see Parrish come around on this. He says that he "was skeptical", but IIRC it was more like him tearing us apart.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Gregg Doyel (also CBS Sportsline) is the guy I remember tearing Minnesota a new one for hiring Tubby. Doyel's not looking so good on that one right now. Of course, he's also the guy that said Billy Gillispie was a home run hire for Kentucky.