Duke basketball = Notre Dame football?

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

In a fairly short period of time, Duke has become Notre Dame football; perceived as being a perennial powerhouse but just not there anymore. Like Notre Dame, Duke's recruiting classes are routinely ranked higher than they should be, just because of who they are.

Last night, they played just 6 guys more than 10 minutes; Not exactly the depth I would expect from a top 10 program and one with the history of a Duke. Without Singler, they wouldn't finish in the top half of the ACC, without question.

Do you think Vegas is aware of Duke being overrated? Duke was just a 5-point favorite over Wisky last night.

Neither team is getting the elite recruits anymore and both teams are struggling with teams they used to dominate. The arrival of "aw shucks" Roy Williams to UNC has spelled doom as of late for the Dukies and I can't say that I'm disappointed.

I'm anxious to see where they rank on the first Vegas Oddsmaker's poll that comes out, the only poll that's compiled of people who really know what they're doing with their votes.

 

[ShowinGoldyLove]

Not even close.

Duke has a national championship, 2 Final Fours, something like four Elite 8's, 7 Sweet 16's, and 7 ACC titles in the past 10 years, consistent McDonald's AA recruits, and a crazy winning percentage over the past 15 years in arguably the toughest conference during that time.

The aren't dominating the teams they used to because there is more parity in D1 basketball than ever before, no one is.

Notre Dame is 1-9 in the past 10 bowl games they've played in the past 15 years, with a 56-43 overall record over the past 10 years.

The odds makers had them as a *only* a 5-point favorite b/c WI has only lost 5 games at Kohl in the past decade. Surprisingly, it's literally one of the top few hardest places to win in college basketball.

 

[MNCH]

Ridiculous.

Last time I checked, Duke wasn't losing at home to Big East patsies on senior night.

And Duke just won the ACC Tourney last year and has won 8 out of the past 11 ACC titles.

And in the last decade, they've finished in the Top 10 final AP poll nine out of 10 times.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Absolutely preposterous statement.

 

[SelectionSunday]

As much as I don't like Duke (though I like watching this Duke team because of Singler), in no way can I put them in that class (the fall of Notre Dame football). The Dukies are still a premier top 5-10 program, despite the fact several programs have scooted past them (most notably Kansas, UNC and MSU) when it comes to getting it done in March. Love 'em or hate 'em, K's teams compete hard every night (cliche, I know), they play in a good league & they're still racking up conference championships & 25-30 wins a year, even with their recent NCAA shortcomings. Though constantly overhyped by the likes blowhards like Dickie V, the Dukies no question are still elite

Notre Dame football? Quite frankly, it's a complete mess. How are those Super Bowl rings treating you, Charlie?

 

[Facts34]

The comparison doesn't work, for the reasons the distinguished posters above point out.

Do people not realize how good Wisconsin might be? They have some major talent and when Hughes plays anywhere near the level he did last night, I'd call them a Top 10 without question. The fact that Duke was "just" a 5-point favorite on the road, against a legit Top 20 team, in one of the toughest places to win in the country - is no indictment of the Duke program. In fact, it's a sign of respect.

And I think Vegas is aware of just about everything. Vegas knows more than just about everyone on this board. It has to.

 

[GVBadger]

The comparison doesn't work, for the reasons the distinguished posters above point out.

Do people not realize how good Wisconsin might be? They have some major talent and when Hughes plays anywhere near the level he did last night, I'd call them a Top 10 without question. The fact that Duke was "just" a 5-point favorite on the road, against a legit Top 20 team, in one of the toughest places to win in the country - is no indictment of the Duke program. In fact, it's a sign of respect.

And I think Vegas is aware of just about everything. Vegas knows more than just about everyone on this board. It has to.

I read that 93% of the money was on Duke last night. Score one for Vegas.

 

[mnboiler]

Your close but Notre Dame Football=Indiana University Basketball. And ironicly they have the same fans.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Two things...

First off, can't fault a guy for sparking an engaging conversation, can you?

Secondly, I'm not saying that they are ND football NOW, just that they could be heading down that road. Sorry, I'm a big picture guy, not a NOW guy I guess. I'm looking down the road 2, 3, whatever years. I DO think it's a possibility.

Lastly, I think some folks are reading WAY too much into the game against Wisky last night. Wisconsin had FOUR turnovers. How many games is ANYONE going to lose, at HOME, regardless of competition, when they turn the ball over FOUR times? No disrespect to Wisky since I really wanted them to win but they played a near perfect game and caught Duke on a relatively off night. My hats off to them, they played a great game and deserved to win.

The same folks who are saying that Wisconsin's game last night means they're suddenly BT title contenders are likely the same on here who are saying the Gophers' season is over after 3 losses in late November/early December.

Okay, so the comparison was a stretch, but I don't think it's as far off as some here are indicating.

 

[dayjoh]

I think Kyrie Irving might have something to say about Duke not being able to land any elite recruits. He looks like a good one.

Oh and how is ND not landing elite recruits? As far as I can tell, with the exception of this year they've been hovering around the top 10 for about 5 years now.

 

[Facts34]

Lastly, I think some folks are reading WAY too much into the game against Wisky last night. Wisconsin had FOUR turnovers. How many games is ANYONE going to lose, at HOME, regardless of competition, when they turn the ball over FOUR times? No disrespect to Wisky since I really wanted them to win but they played a near perfect game and caught Duke on a relatively off night. My hats off to them, they played a great game and deserved to win.

So should we penalize them for only turning the ball over 4 times against a team that traditionally relies on their pressure defense? Was that low number a fluke?

If anything, the fact that they turned the ball over only 4 times is an indication that they are indeed a Big 10 contender.


If they had made ten 40-footers, then you've got a "fluke" argument. Arguing that they aren't that good because they took such damned good care of the basketball is totally backwards.

 

[The Truth]

I think Kyrie Irving might have something to say about Duke not being able to land any elite recruits. He looks like a good one.

Oh and how is ND not landing elite recruits? As far as I can tell, with the exception of this year they've been hovering around the top 10 for about 5 years now.

Notre Dame gets a "bump" from the analysts. Always has and probably always will. Duke and Carolina also have gotten the "bump" in recruiting.

Duke's problems haven't been in the guard department. Duke's problems have been solely confined to K's inability to recruit in the front court and, to a lesser extent, overall athleticism-especially at the Forward position. Think about what they've had at the F/C spot in the last ten years: Brand, Boozer and Williams. Compare that with what they have now and you'll see some of the problems creeping in with Duke and a steady decline in production.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Wow...

So should we penalize them for only turning the ball over 4 times against a team that traditionally relies on their pressure defense? Was that low number a fluke?

If anything, the fact that they turned the ball over only 4 times is an indication that they are indeed a Big 10 contender.


If they had made ten 40-footers, then you've got a "fluke" argument. Arguing that they aren't that good because they took such damned good care of the basketball is totally backwards.

Ummmm, who are you and where did the hostility come from? Who said anything about a "fluke" or that Wisconsin "isn't that good"?

If you want to argue about it, would you feel more comfortable with "atypical"? Going into last night's game, Wisconsin, against much lesser opposition, had 61 assists and 61 TO's. I'm only a civil engineer so my math isn't that great but that sounds like a 1:1 ratio.

Against Duke, 17 assists and 4 TO's. That doesn't sound a little atypical to you? If you really want to argue get into it, Duke also shot better from the floor, better from the arc, and much better from the FT line.

Good grief, how did a thread about Duke/Notre Dame turn into a validation of just how good or not good Wisconsin is?

Apparently you're a Wisky fan. Accept my congratulations for winning a big game for your school and the BT conference and be happy about it. I am. I'm delighted that the BT finally won one of these and delighted and thrilled that it happened at Duke's expense.

 

[MNCH]

Notre Dame gets a "bump" from the analysts. Always has and probably always will. Duke and Carolina also have gotten the "bump" in recruiting. QUOTE]

I don't think the "bump" has hurt either program. Who got "bumped" up on Carolina's team? Here's their last five classes.

2008
Ed Davis 5*
Larry Drew 4*
Tyler Zeller 4*
Justin Watts 3*

2007
- no recruits

2006
- Wayne Ellington 5*
- Ty Lawson 5*
- Brandan Wright 5*
- Alex Stepheson 4*
- Deon Thompson 4*
- Will Graves 3*

2005
- Tyler Hansbrough 5*
- Bobby Frasor 4*
- Marcus Ginyard 4*
- Danny Green 4*

I don't think there's a single player on that list who underperformed based on their stars. And was a bump really the reason why they won a national title?

You have more of a case with Duke's classes, but most of these players performed up to their expectations.

2008
- Elliott Williams 5*
- Oleg Czyz 3*
- Miles Plumlee 3

2007
- Kyle Singler 5*
- Taylor King 4*
- Nolan Smith 4*

2006
- Gerald Henderson 5*
- Brian Zoubek 5*
- John Scheyer 4*
- Lance Thomas 4*

2005
- Josh McRoberts 5*
- Greg Paulus 5*
- Eric Boateng 4*
- Martyn Pocius 4*
- Jamal Boykin 3*

- Hard to evaluate as many transferred but I think the only big whiff on that list is Zoubek. One can argue McRoberts and Paulus didn't deliver as 5* guys and Pocius was not 4* caliber but I think the rest have done as expected. And next year, as one poster mentioned earlier, they bring in Kyrie Irving, who is a big time recruit. Though they did lose Harrison Barnes to UNC, much to Coach K's dismay.

 

[GophersInIowa]

The only real big thing that Duke b-ball and Notre Dame football have in common is that they've both been overrated for some time now. Yes Duke does well during the regular season, but they've been terrrible in the tournament, yet "experts" still consider them one of the top programs in the country.

 

[The Truth]

Notre Dame gets a "bump" from the analysts. Always has and probably always will. Duke and Carolina also have gotten the "bump" in recruiting. QUOTE]

I don't think the "bump" has hurt either program. Who got "bumped" up on Carolina's team? Here's their last five classes.

2008
Ed Davis 5*
Larry Drew 4*
Tyler Zeller 4*
Justin Watts 3*

2007
- no recruits

2006
- Wayne Ellington 5*
- Ty Lawson 5*
- Brandan Wright 5*
- Alex Stepheson 4*
- Deon Thompson 4*
- Will Graves 3*

2005
- Tyler Hansbrough 5*
- Bobby Frasor 4*
- Marcus Ginyard 4*
- Danny Green 4*

I don't think there's a single player on that list who underperformed based on their stars. And was a bump really the reason why they won a national title?

You have more of a case with Duke's classes, but most of these players performed up to their expectations.

2008
- Elliott Williams 5*
- Oleg Czyz 3*
- Miles Plumlee 3

2007
- Kyle Singler 5*
- Taylor King 4*
- Nolan Smith 4*

2006
- Gerald Henderson 5*
- Brian Zoubek 5*
- John Scheyer 4*
- Lance Thomas 4*

2005
- Josh McRoberts 5*
- Greg Paulus 5*
- Eric Boateng 4*
- Martyn Pocius 4*
- Jamal Boykin 3*

- Hard to evaluate as many transferred but I think the only big whiff on that list is Zoubek. One can argue McRoberts and Paulus didn't deliver as 5* guys and Pocius was not 4* caliber but I think the rest have done as expected. And next year, as one poster mentioned earlier, they bring in Kyrie Irving, who is a big time recruit. Though they did lose Harrison Barnes to UNC, much to Coach K's dismay.

And Neil Fingelton was a McDonald's All American.

 

[MNCH]

And Neil Fingelton was a McDonald's All American.

So was Rick Rickert. What's your point?

Is it UNC's fault that the McDonald's All-American Committee chose Fingleton on the All-Star squad? Why wouldn't you take a chance on a 7-6 guy? You named one player that didn't work out 10 years ago. I just named 20 that did. Try again.