Depth: 96-97 vs. 08-09

Donate To GopherHole
Tater

Tater

f.k.a. "Tubtastic"
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
1,144
Reaction score
14
Points
38
bga1 and others on the board have been pretty excited about the depth on this year's team. That made me wonder how this year's team stacks up with our (non) final four team in '97. I think I'd still take the final four team this year (but maybe not next year if Rodney and Royce play as expected).

This year's team in bold, '96-'97 team unbolded:

Name, Position, Height, Weight, Hometown:

Starters:
Nolen, Al G So 6-1 180 Minneapolis, MN (Henry HS)
Harris, Eric G Jr 6-3 195 New York, NY (St. Raymond's)
Westbrook, Lawrence G Jr 6-0 195 Chandler, AZ (Winchendon Prep)
Jackson, Bobby G Sr 6-1 185 Salisbury, NC (Salisbury/W. NE CC)
Johnson, Damian F Jr* 6-7 195 Thibodaux, LA
Jacobson, Sam G/F Jr 6-6 210 Cottage Grove, MN (Park)
Sampson III, Ralph F/C Fr 6-11 220 Duluth, GA (Northview)
James, Courtney F So 6-8 270 Indianapolis, IN (Ben Davis)
Iverson, Colton F/C Fr 6-10 235 Yankton, SD
Thomas, John C Sr 6-9 275 Minneapolis, MN (Roosevelt)

Benches:
Hoffarber, Blake G So 6-4 200 Minnetonka, MN (Hopkins HS)
Archambault, Russ G Fr 6-1 185 Fort Yates, ND (Sartell, MN)
Williams, Jonathan C Sr 6-9 250 St. Cloud, MN (Notre Dame Prep/Apollo)
Winter, Trevor C Sr 7-0 275 Slayton, MN
Sanden, Kyle F/C Fr 6-11 230 Thief River Falls, MN (Lincoln)
Abu-Shamala, Jamal G/F Sr 6-5 210 Shakopee, MN)
Stanford, Jason F So 6-6 180 Milwaukee, WI (Nicolet)
Bostick, Devron G Jr 6-5 210 Racine, WI (SW Illinois CC)
Lewis, Quincy G/F So 6-7 200 Little Rock, AK (Parkview)
Busch, Travis G/F Jr 6-4 220 St. Paul, MN (Mounds View HS)
Loge, Kevin F/C Fr 6-10 230 Morris, MN (Morris Area)
Carter, Paul F So 6-8 195 Little Rock, AR (MO St-W. Plains)
Tarver, Miles F So 6-8 225 Oakland, CA (St. Joe's/ME Central Prep)
Joseph, Devoe G Fr 6-3 170 Ajax, Ontario (Pickering)
Stauber, Aaron G Sr 6-0 185 Sheboygan, WI (North)
Thomas, Charles G So 6-4 200 Harlan, KY
Payton, Kevin G/F Jr 6-5 215 Camden, NJ
Stanford, Jermaine F So 6-6 180 Milwaukee, WI (Nicolet)
 

'97 = big boys

At first glance, what strikes me as notable is this significant size difference between these teams. Clem had bigger players at nearly every position.
 


The "F" words

I've promised myself I will never consider the using the "F" words regarding a Gopher basketball team until I hear a coach or respected former coach/analyst utter the "F" words when talking about the Gophers. Fran Fraschilla, then the coach of St. John's, used the "F" words to describe the Gophers (who played without Courtney James that day) after they thrashed his Redmen during the 1996-97 season. His quote in the paper the next day was somewhere along the lines of, "That's a Final Four-caliber team that just handed it to us."

Ever since that day I listen to what Fraschilla has to say. He had the Gophers pegged well before the rest of us caught on.
 

Tubtastic said:
At first glance, what strikes me as notable is this significant size difference between these teams. Clem had bigger players at nearly every position.
Click to expand...

I don't think the difference is that significant, although I agree that Clem had a size approach and Tubby likes the quicker athletes for defense. But a couple of notes:

1. w/r/t starters, the current team has a bit of a height advantage over the 97 team. When it comes to weight, clearly the two post guys in 97 were much bigger. But JT was a senior that year--don't be at all surprised if Colt or RSIII weigh as much as JT by the time they're seniors. (And as freshman, I think they're still going to be adding height, too.)

2. We don't have a Bobby Jackson on this team--someone with the sheer will (and talent, of course) to take over a game and make you win. That, and experience, may be the biggest separators, although I'm not sure we have anybody who can do what Courney james could do (ignoring phonebooks.)

3. Comparing the reserves is like apples to oranges. Clem used very little of that depth. My memory is fuzzy, but I don't remember either LOge or Sanden getting much time. I think Sanden might have been redshirted, and Loge injured? None of Stauber, the stanfords, or archambault saw much of any meaningful PT that year. (Probably will also be true of Payton this year.) (Granted, Archambault holds the record for punching out early commits, but I'd just as soon we don't have anybody trying to match up with him in that area.)

4. So I'd match the others up like this:
a. Hoffarber vs C. Thomas--even
b. Lewis vs Carter--even
c. Williams vs Winter--Williams gives up a little size there, but it may even out with his better ability to use his size. That's debatable, though.
d. Busch vs Tarver. At that point in his career, tarver didn't play all that much and was pretty ineffective when he did. Remember how roundly he would get booed? And Clem kept saying "just wait, in two years he'll be much better"? Tarver played shorter than he is; Busch plays taller. In terms of contributions to the team (not exactly the criteria you were using, I know) Busch wins in a landslide.

5. That takes care of everybody on the 97 team that played much, with no counterpoints for Joseph, Bostick, and JAS.

So while I would give some weight advantage to 97, I think it's overcome with the depth we have--even though you can only play 5 guys at a time, depth makes a big difference defensively.

Interesting post--thanks.
 


Bobby Jackson was a star and Sam Jacobson was absolutely lethal as well. We dont have any big time scorers on this team but a much more well rounded and deeper team.

I also think people underestimate Courtney James and John Thomas, very solid and thick inside. That team was incredible but didnt have the depth and athleticism to beat Kentucky.

Its way too early to compare these teams and its unfair to this group of guys. This team would be thrill to make the tourney and those guys went to the FF. Incredible year and very fun to remember.
 

Winter was infinitely better than Williams, and same with Lewis and Carter.
 

From the Barn said:
Winter was infinitely better than Williams, and same with Lewis and Carter.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Jon Williams couldn't hold a candle to Trevor Winter, and Quincy Lewis was a dynamic player where as Paul Carter is very unproven, especially against tougher competition. I would take the Final Four team any day.
 

I totally disagree with the statement that the Gophers didn't have the depth or athleticism to beat Kentucky. That team was very athletic at almost every position and would have beat Kentucky with a healthy Eric Harris. Not having a healthy Harris against Kentucky's defense made a huge difference in that game. I can virtually guarantee they would have stomped Arizona in the title game with John Thomas and Courtney James owning the paint against the Arizona posts who were not overly physical. That Gopher team ended up having 4 future 1st round picks, and you could make the argument that Courtney James also would have been a first rounder if not for his off the court issues that got him kicked out of school.

FWIW, I would take the top 6 guys off the '97 team over anyone on the current Gopher squad. The closest call would be whether Damian Johnson as a JR or Quincy Lewis as a So is a better player.
 



EG#9 said:
I totally disagree with the statement that the Gophers didn't have the depth or athleticism to beat Kentucky. That team was very athletic at almost every position and would have beat Kentucky with a healthy Eric Harris. Not having a healthy Harris against Kentucky's defense made a huge difference in that game. I can virtually guarantee they would have stomped Arizona in the title game with John Thomas and Courtney James owning the paint against the Arizona posts who were not overly physical. That Gopher team ended up having 4 future 1st round picks, and you could make the argument that Courtney James also would have been a first rounder if not for his off the court issues that got him kicked out of school.

FWIW, I would take the top 6 guys off the '97 team over anyone on the current Gopher squad. The closest call would be whether Damian Johnson as a JR or Quincy Lewis as a So is a better player.
Click to expand...

The Lewis/Johnson question is difficult because they are so different. Lewis came off the bench and he was instant offense. Damian is developing an offensive game but hands down I have to hand it to Quincy if we need a basket. On the other hand, Damian Johnson is a better defender and shot blocker and I think he is more versatile because he can play the 3 or 4 and I don't remember Quincy having the ability to play the 4 on defense as a sophomore. My preference between the two would depend on what you have on the rest of the team.
 

I agree with others. Lewis definately better than Carter and Winters better that Williams. I would also add that Hoffarber is better than Charles Thomas, plus I don't think Blake has exposed himself in the student union.
 

Many posters here are comparing the 97 players at the end of the year to this years players before they even have played one Big Ten game. You will see improvement in these players. Having said that I would say the 97 team had more experience and the present team(speaking of bench players ) has more ability.
 

station19 said:
Many posters here are comparing the 97 players at the end of the year to this years players before they even have played one Big Ten game. You will see improvement in these players. Having said that I would say the 97 team had more experience and the present team(speaking of bench players ) has more ability.
Click to expand...


I think that's right station19. There is no comparison to the 97 team right now . The 97 team was better - hands down. However, if you compare players 9 through 12 this team has a lot more ability-that was my point on depth. This team may have as much or even more upside than the 97 team if you look a year out.
 



I'd actually disagree (shocking). If certain players didn't beat anyone with phone books, the 98 team was poised for another deep tournament run.
 

97 Team

The 97 team is better at every position than our current team right now. Who knows about next year, but we still don't have anyone as talented as Jackson or Jacobson.
 

bga1 said:
I think that's right station19. There is no comparison to the 97 team right now . The 97 team was better - hands down. However, if you compare players 9 through 12 this team has a lot more ability-that was my point on depth. This team may have as much or even more upside than the 97 team if you look a year out.
Click to expand...

Okay I'll look a year out. We lose JW and JAS. We bring in the four new recruits who all can play and want miniutes. That will be enough talent for two Big Ten teams. How they mature and develop we will see. It's going to be very enjoyable to watch.
 

eker0016 said:
I couldn't agree more. Jon Williams couldn't hold a candle to Trevor Winter, and Quincy Lewis was a dynamic player where as Paul Carter is very unproven, especially against tougher competition. I would take the Final Four team any day.
Click to expand...

If you guys are responding to my post, remember that when I said "even", I was talking about size (as per the original post) --not skills. I did modify it a little bit to reflect ability to use that size, but that's not to say that they were equivalent in other areas.

Having said that, I don't think Nolen is too far behind where Harris was, and maybe my memeory is bad, but I'm not sure Lewis, in terms of overall skills when a sophomore, was that far ahead of Carter. We haven't seen enough of Carter to really assess, but before he was hurt he wasn't he doing pretty well in rebounding, defense, and baswic blocking and tackling (screening, blocking out, all the non-box score stuff)? IN 97 lewis was a better offensive player than carter is today, but the "instant offense" guy was C Thomas, if I remember right. I don't think Lewis was any better, and maybe not as good, in the other areas as Carter seemed to be (but of course Carter was playing against not very good competition early in the year, so that makes judging really hard.)

There is no question in my mind that DJ is, today, a better ballplayer than Q was as a soph. Q was a better shooter, but his contributions to the team that year don't come close to what DJ means to this year's team.

To EG--Without question Jackson, James, Jacobson, and Thomas were all better than anyone on this team is today. Probably true of Harris, too, but it's getting closer. Assuming your sixth guy was Winter, I'd agree that his expereince made him better than any of our current bigs, but CI's athleticism puts him pretty close behind, and I think that overall, Nolen and maybe a couple others on the current team are at least as capable as Trevor was. We've got a number of guys who I think are equal or better than Q (in terms of overall game, not just shooting), and after that, I'd take most of the current guys over the remaining 97 team. the bench players in 97 had roles, and filled them admirably, but they weren't great all around players. The "J's" on that team were what made it so special.
 

James and Thomas

Right now, you just can't compare those bigs to our two Freshman. We have the potential to be just as good if not a better tandem but that year, James and Thomas provided a lot of space for everyone else to create shots.
 

Jim V2 said:
I'm not sure Lewis, in terms of overall skills when a sophomore, was that far ahead of Carter. We haven't seen enough of Carter to really assess, but before he was hurt he wasn't he doing pretty well in rebounding, defense, and basic blocking and tackling (screening, blocking out, all the non-box score stuff)? In 97 lewis was a better offensive player than carter is today, but the "instant offense" guy was C Thomas, if I remember right.
I don't think Lewis was any better, and maybe not as good, in the other areas as Carter seemed to be (but of course Carter was playing against not very good competition early in the year, so that makes judging really hard.)
Click to expand...

Lewis averaged 8 points per game and Thomas averaged 7 points per game. It's not a big difference but if either is going to be considered instant offense it would probably be the one with a higher ppg average. Both averaged about 1 point per 2 minutes played so they both fit the description. Lewis was a 3 and Thomas was a 2 so they could both be used as instant offense with different lineups. Clem got by using 1 back up guard for the most part (Archambault also spelled Harris) because Harris was a true PG, Jackson could play the 1 or 2, Thomas was a 2 and Jacobson could move to the 2 which allowed Q to play the 3.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/minnesota?season=1996-1997
 

grunkiejr said:
Lewis averaged 8 points per game and Thomas averaged 7 points per game. It's not a big difference but if either is going to be considered instant offense it would probably be the one with a higher ppg average. Both averaged about 1 point per 2 minutes played so they both fit the description. Lewis was a 3 and Thomas was a 2 so they could both be used as instant offense with different lineups. Clem got by using 1 back up guard for the most part (Archambault also spelled Harris) because Harris was a true PG, Jackson could play the 1 or 2, Thomas was a 2 and Jacobson could move to the 2 which allowed Q to play the 3.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/minnesota?season=1996-1997
Click to expand...

OK. My use of the term was based on how I remember the players being referred to back then, not the result, but I agree that the result is more valid for purposes of this thread. And i agree with your descriptions of the substitution patterns.
 

grunkiejr said:
Lewis averaged 8 points per game and Thomas averaged 7 points per game. It's not a big difference but if either is going to be considered instant offense it would probably be the one with a higher ppg average. Both averaged about 1 point per 2 minutes played so they both fit the description. Lewis was a 3 and Thomas was a 2 so they could both be used as instant offense with different lineups. Clem got by using 1 back up guard for the most part (Archambault also spelled Harris) because Harris was a true PG, Jackson could play the 1 or 2, Thomas was a 2 and Jacobson could move to the 2 which allowed Q to play the 3.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/minnesota?season=1996-1997
Click to expand...

That is quite the stat sheet link - this might even rival the eric thrall website - at least from 1980.
 

I think this is the best team since '97. However, this team is not even close to the '97 squad, so comparisons are a waste of bandwidth. If it is late Feb and this team is 13-3 and headed towards a title then the discussion is more worthwhile.
 


If memory serves me correctly (every now and then it does) the 97 starters and most of bench was Sr and Jrs.

I might be inclined to take Al Nolen over Eric Harris. Harris was not a true pg and had to learn the position his jr and sr year and did a very nice job but it is a lot more natural for Nolen.
 

Two years from now, this discussion will have strong merit I think.
 

Be carefull when trusting height listings for the gophers. Courtney James wasn't anywhere near 6'8". Even check out their team photo, the Stanford twins are both taller than him. Maybe he is slouching?
 

I agree that this will be a much more interesting comparison next year -- especially if this year's newcomers progress a bunch by the end of this year (and through the offseason).

I merely posted it to compare where we are now to where we need to be. Although we're not quite there yet, the comparison shows that we're probably only two more nice recruiting classes away from a very comparable team in terms of depth and experience.

The only thing we might be eventually missing is a lights-out scorer like Bobby Jackson (could that be Royce White or Rodney Williams in two-three years?)
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom