Defensive Scheme
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GopherOhana
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don't get to see the games, so curious about this. on running plays is our d line not occupying their o line, leaving the lbs free to tackle?
from the game stats looks like we faced a one dimensional team, and got creamed. did we put 9 in the box and still lose?
from the game stats looks like we faced a one dimensional team, and got creamed. did we put 9 in the box and still lose?
Scheme leaves them vulnerable because of the wide sets, if I'm not mistaken. How I understand it is, under the previous regime, the line was more about plugging it up and letting the LBs just go and clean it up. Now, the line is more aggressive, and it's up to the LBs to shed blocks. I think the LBs are struggling with their different role than they had been doing before. Last year though, our pass defense was so bad, teams didn't even bother run on us. Now that they can't just line up and throw repeatedly, we're seeing the vulnerability of our run defense.
GopherOhana
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hmmm, sounds like we kept a run oriented team from passing - including in the 4th qtr when run was obvious?
Bob_Loblaw
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Honestly, I really like the future of our young safeties, but they are really bad against power running teams. Wells has looked great at times, but almost every long run, you will notice he either bit on something he shouldn't or simply missed the tackle.
The problem is that he's a converted CB who should be a FR playing S for the first time. I definitely think he has the skills to get a lot better. But the reason why those runs are 40+ instead of 12 is largely the safety play.
The problem is that he's a converted CB who should be a FR playing S for the first time. I definitely think he has the skills to get a lot better. But the reason why those runs are 40+ instead of 12 is largely the safety play.
The defense is young in spots and has players that have been moved around and still needs to get better players in the system. I know it is early in the tenure of this regime but I am not convinced this particular scheme with smaller DLinemen built to rush the passer and play in space will work in this conference.
Whether it works or not won't be known for a few more years.
Whether it works or not won't be known for a few more years.
upnorthkid
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I will agree. Wells missed tackle after tackle today. He looks too timid at times when coming up to tackle and waits for the runner to get to him. That's a recipe for disaster against a good back that can shift.
GeorgiaGopher
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Wells missed a lot of tackles because the linebackers were no where to be seen. Kill needs to shore up the linebacking corps and he is not actively recruiting any that I know of...
Bob_Loblaw
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This might sound weird, but I also think he's not used to being larger than 160 (supposedly what he weighed his SR year of HS). I've seen make plays on larger people, I think he has the strength for it. However, sometimes on one-on-one plays in the box, he seems to kind of make a play that a man much smaller than him would attempt.
I think he'll get better. He had flashes of awesome play in the non-conference.
Bob_Loblaw
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Poor LB play or not, Wells can't miss as many tackles as he misses a game. You see safeties make big tackles in the run game all of the time. When safeties miss, 12 yard runs go for TDs, and that is happening way too often for us.
I'm not defending the LBers, but the question was why are there so many extremely long runs.
As far as LBs....hopefully we have some talent in the wings...
We have a commit from Wayzata than can play, a kid named Chris Wipson.
I don't know much about Westerhaus and Matilus...hopefully there is something there as well.
Governor Sibley
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Unlike our linebackers, Wells does make good "fits" usually. But then he'll whiff.
Better than not getting in position to begin with.
Better than not getting in position to begin with.
OddStack
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Bob_Loblaw--you hit it. Wells is really, really struggling! They way Bucky was running the ball, they were creating an extra gap inside with their FB from the wing and Wells was far too passive filling it allowing Ball/White space to keep him cement footed.
OddStack
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He was not fitting well today at all. I thought our linebackers were more aggressive today and fit properly. Hill backed up at least twice today on clear run reads instead of getting downhill, though.
upnorthkid
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Wells will get better i'm sure. but his tackling killed the team several times. but that is part of the growing pains of a young team. the issue does arise that he is the only man left to make the tackle. whether that is scheme or just whats happened is questionable. but when hes called upon he needs to make the play.
Are you sure it's not the talent (or lack of) on defense? I'm 100% positive that's it. Iowa & Wisconsin are somewhat similar in scheme but Northwestern is completely different. No matter, all teams gashed us with the run. The players we're relying on are just not talented enough to stop a good offense. End of story.
Ya but
What you are all saying is true but there are way too many runs where a guy gets to the end zone withouth breaking even one tackle. He goes untouched. This can happen when we blitz and there is nobody left but that is not it. There is nobody there. On one touchdown run, Wells whiffed on the tackle at the line of scrimmage. That's it. One guy with an opportunity. Goodbye. Nobody else for days on defense. Off tackle, up the middle, doesn't matter. Ball on one up the middle went through a canal wider than a four lane highway. Where are we? Something can't be right?
Offense and defense we do not have play makers. When it was a game, midway 3rd quarter, we had them 3rd and 12. This time we were in position. 3 guys missed tackles on Ball. Anyone of them makes a play and they punt. Instead they march and we roll over and it's done.
What you are all saying is true but there are way too many runs where a guy gets to the end zone withouth breaking even one tackle. He goes untouched. This can happen when we blitz and there is nobody left but that is not it. There is nobody there. On one touchdown run, Wells whiffed on the tackle at the line of scrimmage. That's it. One guy with an opportunity. Goodbye. Nobody else for days on defense. Off tackle, up the middle, doesn't matter. Ball on one up the middle went through a canal wider than a four lane highway. Where are we? Something can't be right?
Offense and defense we do not have play makers. When it was a game, midway 3rd quarter, we had them 3rd and 12. This time we were in position. 3 guys missed tackles on Ball. Anyone of them makes a play and they punt. Instead they march and we roll over and it's done.
DarrenTheGreek
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I remember a play in the first half when Rallis went untouched into the backfield and whiffed on the tackle. The RB then got a 10 yard run for a 1st down. This can't happen for a senior.
gopherdudepart2
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It is scheme with the defenseive line and linebackers
But it is also Scheme with the offense. With all of three and out's by the offfense the last three opponents, this has set the defense up to fail. We move the ball well at times but far to many plays that are leading to 3rd and 8. The offense convereted far to few first downs yesterday. Offensive play calling and execution have to get better it is painfully obvious.
We have been caught in a D line stunt at least twice the last two weeks that resulted in explosive plays for the opponent. Either we quit that or get better at disguising it. Problem is each of the situations it does'nt look like the players did what they were coached to do. Hageman seems to want to be a defensive end with as many times that he likes to loop around a block.
One thing is very evident Kill needs to recruit linebackers that will fit his system, especially a middle linebacker, so far I'm not seeing it, and were not seeing players that fit what they want to do back there. There likely going to have to find some JUCO guy's to fill the classes until they can groom the kids they do have in the program. We do not make the right decisions of what gap to fill up front, to much indecision and backpeddaling or playing on your heels. They were doing a good job against Wisconsin in the first half but obviously got tired.
We still have "linebackers" that are used to playing the style of the old staff, fill the gaps in the line and hope the Safety's or corner backs can clean up and make the tackle on the back side. In this defensive scheme the linebackers are expected to shed tackles and make the play with the pass rush we expect from the defensive line. Our group doesn't shed tackles, they use the wrong shoulder when leading to fill and attack the wrong shoulder when trying to get off a block. To many times were trying to step around a blocker, to the wrong side and leaving everyone else very vulnerable to cut backs or change of direction. We certainly do not have a middle linebacker on this defense that can line up the defense or take on a block or rally anyone. We have three outside linebackers playing the spot and were not seeing the group play well here. Remember two of these guy's are converted Safety's that never played linebacker until they played for the Gophers, they are playing damn hard, I don't fault them on there effort, just to many mistakes happening as a group, so everyone is pressing and making mistakes. On the D-line we start with wide line gaps to begin with, and we have a defensive line that is coached to pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. Do I like them being agressive yes, do I like the fact that they do not seem to understand on the line they have run gap responsibility's and need to be hitting the backs no.
We have been caught with defensive tackles stunting and looping around to pass rush the last two weeks on touchdowns. This is not an accident, the offenisve coordinators or QB's have figured out a tell when the Gophers will stunt and loop there defensive tackles. There going to have to do a better job of disguising this approach or the defenisve end is actullay going to have to fill the middle
if there going to keep using this approach on the pass rush. Hagemen has been guilty on this two consecutive weeks, looping outside and completely vacating his spot, both seemed to be obvious errors.
I don't think these have been calls these have been critical errors that have absolutely messed over Wells or Thompson who have had to quickly adjust and yes have missed some tackles. Thompson and Wells are still young relatively light guy's, they will get better it is just losing compounds problems. This team can play very well at times than they get torched. One thing I think we can all agree upoun, the defense is playing far to much. Some of it is not stopping the run, some of it is just to many reps.
Backs are coming through the D-line untouched far to often. Have we played good backs yes, but the defense has made major mistakes when these long running plays have occured.
Maybe that the experts and pundints were right to predict the Gophers will not win a Big10 game? The program is not at a state where they can sustain considerable injury and have a lot of conference success. Gophers are in a tough spot, they are losing and it will just compound the problems.
But it is also Scheme with the offense. With all of three and out's by the offfense the last three opponents, this has set the defense up to fail. We move the ball well at times but far to many plays that are leading to 3rd and 8. The offense convereted far to few first downs yesterday. Offensive play calling and execution have to get better it is painfully obvious.
We have been caught in a D line stunt at least twice the last two weeks that resulted in explosive plays for the opponent. Either we quit that or get better at disguising it. Problem is each of the situations it does'nt look like the players did what they were coached to do. Hageman seems to want to be a defensive end with as many times that he likes to loop around a block.
One thing is very evident Kill needs to recruit linebackers that will fit his system, especially a middle linebacker, so far I'm not seeing it, and were not seeing players that fit what they want to do back there. There likely going to have to find some JUCO guy's to fill the classes until they can groom the kids they do have in the program. We do not make the right decisions of what gap to fill up front, to much indecision and backpeddaling or playing on your heels. They were doing a good job against Wisconsin in the first half but obviously got tired.
We still have "linebackers" that are used to playing the style of the old staff, fill the gaps in the line and hope the Safety's or corner backs can clean up and make the tackle on the back side. In this defensive scheme the linebackers are expected to shed tackles and make the play with the pass rush we expect from the defensive line. Our group doesn't shed tackles, they use the wrong shoulder when leading to fill and attack the wrong shoulder when trying to get off a block. To many times were trying to step around a blocker, to the wrong side and leaving everyone else very vulnerable to cut backs or change of direction. We certainly do not have a middle linebacker on this defense that can line up the defense or take on a block or rally anyone. We have three outside linebackers playing the spot and were not seeing the group play well here. Remember two of these guy's are converted Safety's that never played linebacker until they played for the Gophers, they are playing damn hard, I don't fault them on there effort, just to many mistakes happening as a group, so everyone is pressing and making mistakes. On the D-line we start with wide line gaps to begin with, and we have a defensive line that is coached to pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. Do I like them being agressive yes, do I like the fact that they do not seem to understand on the line they have run gap responsibility's and need to be hitting the backs no.
We have been caught with defensive tackles stunting and looping around to pass rush the last two weeks on touchdowns. This is not an accident, the offenisve coordinators or QB's have figured out a tell when the Gophers will stunt and loop there defensive tackles. There going to have to do a better job of disguising this approach or the defenisve end is actullay going to have to fill the middle
if there going to keep using this approach on the pass rush. Hagemen has been guilty on this two consecutive weeks, looping outside and completely vacating his spot, both seemed to be obvious errors.
I don't think these have been calls these have been critical errors that have absolutely messed over Wells or Thompson who have had to quickly adjust and yes have missed some tackles. Thompson and Wells are still young relatively light guy's, they will get better it is just losing compounds problems. This team can play very well at times than they get torched. One thing I think we can all agree upoun, the defense is playing far to much. Some of it is not stopping the run, some of it is just to many reps.
Backs are coming through the D-line untouched far to often. Have we played good backs yes, but the defense has made major mistakes when these long running plays have occured.
Maybe that the experts and pundints were right to predict the Gophers will not win a Big10 game? The program is not at a state where they can sustain considerable injury and have a lot of conference success. Gophers are in a tough spot, they are losing and it will just compound the problems.
I see the overall problem on defense is TALENT. On the running plays that go for big yardage or even plays that go from negative yardage to positive yardage are because someone is getting caved in by a big O-lineman or a Linebacker is bouncing off a running back. Our linebackers are not very fast nor strong enough to take on Big Ten Offenses. I'm very concerned about the future of our Linebackers, unless we find some JUCO players. Our D-line has some quickness but they have a tendency to play too high and when they get blocked it looks like they're wearing roller-skates getting driven back.
Secondly, with all the read option stuff in College I don't know why more college defenses are not going back to the 52-Okie defense, which was designed to stop option run. Back in the 80's when the Veer and Wishbone were still in style that is how you defended any kind of option attack because you needed someone to drill the QB and someone to take the pitch man. Granted you need a big Nose Guard to clog the middle, but still, a 4-3 is not conducive to defending a read option attack. i.e. see the Vikings against RG-III.
Secondly, with all the read option stuff in College I don't know why more college defenses are not going back to the 52-Okie defense, which was designed to stop option run. Back in the 80's when the Veer and Wishbone were still in style that is how you defended any kind of option attack because you needed someone to drill the QB and someone to take the pitch man. Granted you need a big Nose Guard to clog the middle, but still, a 4-3 is not conducive to defending a read option attack. i.e. see the Vikings against RG-III.
WorkingMyTailOff
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We might be quicker on defense, but we are still too light. We need girth up front, and maybe less gambling with stunts. I do like the way carter is playing cb.
Potentially never in the history of college football has a team given up six long TD runs right up the middle in the span of two weeks without the RB getting touched like we have just done; and that's not to mention what went on at Iowa the week before. It's not just the players not making plays, it has to be the schemes to some extent. For those folks who say "they're playing Rallis, et al because they're the best we have; the coaches see them every day and know" I don't buy that, either. Rallis and Hill are good students and good citizens and that maybe plays into it. We have a revolving door at QB I say let's get 'er revolving at LB too until we find someone who can stuff a run play. Beal, Reeves, et al have not been given a chance in games. Why? They can't be any worse than what we're trotting out there right now. Also, these kids playing LB for us are two RS seniors and a RS junior. Youth has nothing to do with them not being able to stuff the run.
RodentRampage
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On the contrary, it's happened a great many times.
gopherdudepart2
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Our defense has been playing far to much and that is on the offense for going 3-0.
We punt far to much and do not sustain nearly enough offensive drives. Injury's have played apart but first down play calls have become quite predictable. When you look at time of possession our defense is playing to much.
What you are seeing is a program with not a lot of depth or experience especially in the front seven. The coaches have not lied about this fact, in my opinion they or Kill have been honest to a fault about this. When they talk about there strength and conditioning program there not bragging, what there trying to do is build up guy's that are the same age and experience levels to play these BIG10 opponents.
Keep in mind we have played against some pretty good running backs the last two weeks, especially the Wisconsin guys who have great speed and strength. I'm not trying to make excuses but when your tired, your really tired your going to make mistakes even the Pros do that. White and Ball are awful talented running backs, there going to make better defenses the ours look like patsy's. Wisconsin is a top program in the big ten and we are one of the lower to lowest programs.
With the Gophers attacking type of pass rush first scheme up front there going to have to recruit linebackers that can shed tackles and make more individual plays, and defensive tackles of considerable girth that can bounce off blocks and cover a lot of ground.
At this point we have to have a "tell" when were in a certain blitz look because we have been caught in a blitz call by the linebackers and front four, and are playing cover two in the defensive backfield. Cedric Thompson against Wisconsin correctly filled on that play to the Wisconsin back White, he just got overpowered and got caught flat footed in making his tackle. I give the kid credit as he tried to stick his skinny butt up in there and take on White, he did not make the play, but he made the correct read and tried to fill on that play. Our Gophers defensive line plays far to upright in the tackle spot, we are allowing them to knock us back out on our heels because of this.
I'm not going to give you a long winded explanation about the scheme or the mistakes that were made on the explosive running plays as usual. To me there were individual mistakes along the line that caused the breakdown of the play. We have been caught in a certain blitz look, where we are trying to overwhelm the right side of the line on the pass rush, looping the tackles to the outside. The tackles did not correctly read the pulling guard and break off this rush. Consequently we ran ourselves out of the play. At the same time the middle linebacker has been sealed or in the Wisconsin game, filling the wrong gap that nobody is blocking.
Until they recruit more experienced linebackers that are really good at shedding tackles and making individual plays this is going to continue to be a problem. If your going to have that attack first mentality up front, you better have people that can clean it up on the back side.
Stuffing the run is hard when your running yourself out of gaps and taking yourself out of the play. That said the Gopher defense played one heck of a first half against Wisconsin, they hung in there and caused a lot of punts and did a lot of good things. Hopefully the coaches and players can put a stop to these untouched runs and we see of that more first half of this last game defense. There were a lot of good plays made by the defense in the first half, especially for how much they had to play. I was encouraged by what the defense was trying to do and what they did execute, they hung tough for 3 quarters, and they did that against Northwestern last week and Iowa the week before. Now we need to see the whole team put a complete game together.
We punt far to much and do not sustain nearly enough offensive drives. Injury's have played apart but first down play calls have become quite predictable. When you look at time of possession our defense is playing to much.
What you are seeing is a program with not a lot of depth or experience especially in the front seven. The coaches have not lied about this fact, in my opinion they or Kill have been honest to a fault about this. When they talk about there strength and conditioning program there not bragging, what there trying to do is build up guy's that are the same age and experience levels to play these BIG10 opponents.
Keep in mind we have played against some pretty good running backs the last two weeks, especially the Wisconsin guys who have great speed and strength. I'm not trying to make excuses but when your tired, your really tired your going to make mistakes even the Pros do that. White and Ball are awful talented running backs, there going to make better defenses the ours look like patsy's. Wisconsin is a top program in the big ten and we are one of the lower to lowest programs.
With the Gophers attacking type of pass rush first scheme up front there going to have to recruit linebackers that can shed tackles and make more individual plays, and defensive tackles of considerable girth that can bounce off blocks and cover a lot of ground.
At this point we have to have a "tell" when were in a certain blitz look because we have been caught in a blitz call by the linebackers and front four, and are playing cover two in the defensive backfield. Cedric Thompson against Wisconsin correctly filled on that play to the Wisconsin back White, he just got overpowered and got caught flat footed in making his tackle. I give the kid credit as he tried to stick his skinny butt up in there and take on White, he did not make the play, but he made the correct read and tried to fill on that play. Our Gophers defensive line plays far to upright in the tackle spot, we are allowing them to knock us back out on our heels because of this.
I'm not going to give you a long winded explanation about the scheme or the mistakes that were made on the explosive running plays as usual. To me there were individual mistakes along the line that caused the breakdown of the play. We have been caught in a certain blitz look, where we are trying to overwhelm the right side of the line on the pass rush, looping the tackles to the outside. The tackles did not correctly read the pulling guard and break off this rush. Consequently we ran ourselves out of the play. At the same time the middle linebacker has been sealed or in the Wisconsin game, filling the wrong gap that nobody is blocking.
Until they recruit more experienced linebackers that are really good at shedding tackles and making individual plays this is going to continue to be a problem. If your going to have that attack first mentality up front, you better have people that can clean it up on the back side.
Stuffing the run is hard when your running yourself out of gaps and taking yourself out of the play. That said the Gopher defense played one heck of a first half against Wisconsin, they hung in there and caused a lot of punts and did a lot of good things. Hopefully the coaches and players can put a stop to these untouched runs and we see of that more first half of this last game defense. There were a lot of good plays made by the defense in the first half, especially for how much they had to play. I was encouraged by what the defense was trying to do and what they did execute, they hung tough for 3 quarters, and they did that against Northwestern last week and Iowa the week before. Now we need to see the whole team put a complete game together.
Sportsfan24
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Here's my two cents on the matter. I've tried to stay away from certain areas of the team as not appear bias.
Scheme:
Someone nailed it when they made note that the scheme calls for the d-line to not be concerned with keeping the o-linemen of he backers. This ain't gonna work in the Big Ten; for the love of god you can't possible expect the backers to shed big ten quality lineman....NFL quality linemen. I doubt Alabama could pull that off against Wisconsin.
Safety play:
First off allow me to remind everyone that I said in week one after the game and Wells was placed on the Bronco Nagurski watch list that I would remind them later in the season what the feeling were then in regard to his play. Why did I say this? Because I knew what lay ahead. While coach was lamenting the supposed lack of ability of last years secondary he forgot that this years team was going use the same defensive scheme. The difference? No Kim Royston. In Kim you had a experienced, tough, strong, fast, sure tackling safety and guess what? The secondary was still a
hot mess. Why? Because if the success of your run defense is based on 230lb's getting off the blocks of 320 o-lineman who have free shots at them and 200 S's tackling 230 RB's with 12 to 15 yard running starts the defense is doomed to failure. Wells is the same player who looked outstanding earlier in the year but it's way to much to ask a converted cb to hold up to that. Yes, I know Kim was a converted cb but the difference is he was a physical corner to begin with who put on 20lbs over 3 years not 3 months. Personally I thought Troy Stoudemire had the physicality to best make the conversion to safety.
Going into the season some were wondering how the gophers could replace Kim's production? My response was they didn't need to. I said this because I knew that a safety with 120 tackles meant you had a losing team. I believe it is far more important for the front seven to stop the run, that way the secondary/safties could focus on stopping the pass. As we saw in the first game of the season, in that formula Wells is a safety worthy of Bronko Nagurski consideration.
Scheme:
Someone nailed it when they made note that the scheme calls for the d-line to not be concerned with keeping the o-linemen of he backers. This ain't gonna work in the Big Ten; for the love of god you can't possible expect the backers to shed big ten quality lineman....NFL quality linemen. I doubt Alabama could pull that off against Wisconsin.
Safety play:
First off allow me to remind everyone that I said in week one after the game and Wells was placed on the Bronco Nagurski watch list that I would remind them later in the season what the feeling were then in regard to his play. Why did I say this? Because I knew what lay ahead. While coach was lamenting the supposed lack of ability of last years secondary he forgot that this years team was going use the same defensive scheme. The difference? No Kim Royston. In Kim you had a experienced, tough, strong, fast, sure tackling safety and guess what? The secondary was still a
hot mess. Why? Because if the success of your run defense is based on 230lb's getting off the blocks of 320 o-lineman who have free shots at them and 200 S's tackling 230 RB's with 12 to 15 yard running starts the defense is doomed to failure. Wells is the same player who looked outstanding earlier in the year but it's way to much to ask a converted cb to hold up to that. Yes, I know Kim was a converted cb but the difference is he was a physical corner to begin with who put on 20lbs over 3 years not 3 months. Personally I thought Troy Stoudemire had the physicality to best make the conversion to safety.
Going into the season some were wondering how the gophers could replace Kim's production? My response was they didn't need to. I said this because I knew that a safety with 120 tackles meant you had a losing team. I believe it is far more important for the front seven to stop the run, that way the secondary/safties could focus on stopping the pass. As we saw in the first game of the season, in that formula Wells is a safety worthy of Bronko Nagurski consideration.