cooper too small to pley LBer?

[KD6-3.7]

Don't want to hijak the royston thread.

Simoni Lawrence was listed at 205 on the 2008-2009 roster, and since cooper is listed at 210 on the 2010-2011 roster while an update on his facebook fan page recently said that he was 205, i would say that lawrence was closer to 200 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season.

cooper is a redshirt sophomore and weighs 205, lawrence was 200 as a junior. because i think that cooper has a better nose for the ball, seems like he is a better tackler (from limited action) and is faster than lawrence, i am not going to worry about him playing this year at between 205 and 210.

He is putting on weight exactly as he should to keep it lean and flexible, slowly. if he keeps up the good work he should be playing at 220 as a junior (lawrence's listed weight as a senior) and 230+ as a senior while running a 4.4.

he was playing LBer last year at sub-200 and looked like the best player on the field (albeit raw) so let's not get too worked up about him being undersized.

brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside.

there are plenty of options for safety (mostly untested, but whose going to take cooper's spot if he moves to safety?). Brewster has mentioned Christyn Lewis being impressive at safety, Shady salomon should and will get plenty of time at safety now, hershel thornton coming in from scranton next fall is supposed to be a mature player and has great size, kenny watkins is the future and it looks like the future is now. collado could fit in nicely at safety in a pinch too.

 

[dpodoll68]

Here are my two thoughts on the subject:

1) Size is less important than read/recognition and good tackling ability. Sure, it's great to have all three, but I would definitely take the other two over size. You can make a guy bigger, but a guy on defense who can't/won't tackle is quite limited, especially anywhere but CB.

2) Safeties are the last line of defense. Generally speaking, you can get away with having your "lesser" players there, because they are only there to clean up the mistakes others have already made. Cooper might be our best defender. Defenses whose best player is a S are generally not good. Do we really want our best defensive player at S?

 

[monk10]

Can anyone confirm that cover 2 is our base package?

That is the only reason I would see it as an absolute no no. Having Cooper 10-15yards away from the line of scrimmage would be a waste of his better talents, which include getting to the ball and making tackles.

Otherwise you could drop him down and play a 4-4 look against run oriented teams. In addition you can pull out a non-cover LB and insert a nickle back and keep cooper near the line if he is having trouble covering in space for passing situations. But then again if he is having trouble covering in space, why would you move him to safety in the first place? Seems like to many question marks to move him to safety just based on his size.

 

[Stargenes]

Don't want to hijak the royston thread.

Simoni Lawrence was listed at 205 on the 2008-2009 roster, and since cooper is listed at 210 on the 2010-2011 roster while an update on his facebook fan page recently said that he was 205, i would say that lawrence was closer to 200 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season.

cooper is a redshirt sophomore and weighs 205, lawrence was 200 as a junior. because i think that cooper has a better nose for the ball, seems like he is a better tackler (from limited action) and is faster than lawrence, i am not going to worry about him playing this year at between 205 and 210.

He is putting on weight exactly as he should to keep it lean and flexible, slowly. if he keeps up the good work he should be playing at 220 as a junior (lawrence's listed weight as a senior) and 230+ as a senior while running a 4.4.

he was playing LBer last year at sub-200 and looked like the best player on the field (albeit raw) so let's not get too worked up about him being undersized.

brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside.

there are plenty of options for safety (mostly untested, but whose going to take cooper's spot if he moves to safety?). Brewster has mentioned Christyn Lewis being impressive at safety, Shady salomon should and will get plenty of time at safety now, hershel thornton coming in from scranton next fall is supposed to be a mature player and has great size, kenny watkins is the future and it looks like the future is now. collado could fit in nicely at safety in a pinch too.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. Cooper is definitely a LBer and the FUTURE IS NOW. Cooper is a team leader and player. Watkins will be a leader as well. I thought that he and Carter would do great things for the GOPHERS when they signed in '09. The key is our JUCO players this year coming through big time. Lewis now and Thornton as well in the fall.

 

[gophmeister]

The key is our JUCO players this year coming through big time. Lewis now and Thornton as well in the fall.

I bet everyone is glad that we signed these guys. I really liked Thornton's film. Of course, they don't call it a highlight reel for nothing. I don't expect any of the JUCOs to be the answer, but they will get playing time as reserves and special teams players. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Thornton give up the college football dream in order to work to support his family (could have been Tillman)? At any rate, I think whichever one it was will appreciate their chance more so than a player who has not dealt with much adversity.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Here are my observations:

#1: Cooper looked good to me last season at LB and he has gotten bigger since then. I understand in a more limited role last year you could hide some deficiencies, but he didn't come across as too small to suceed at LB.

#2: He is one of the better players on our defense, why would we want to change anything about him?

#3: We do have enough depth at LB (Maresh, Reeves, etc.) that if we need a LB situationally with a bit more size, that could be easily solved.

 

[Stargenes]

I bet everyone is glad that we signed these guys. I really liked Thornton's film. Of course, they don't call it a highlight reel for nothing. I don't expect any of the JUCOs to be the answer, but they will get playing time as reserves and special teams players. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Thornton give up the college football dream in order to work to support his family (could have been Tillman)? At any rate, I think whichever one it was will appreciate their chance more so than a player who has not dealt with much adversity.

It was Thornton who delayed his college career altruisticly. He is very mature and will likely be more play now-ready than most I would think. He is 22 years old.

 

[Thunderlips]

Here are my two thoughts on the subject:

1) Size is less important than read/recognition and good tackling ability. Sure, it's great to have all three, but I would definitely take the other two over size. You can make a guy bigger, but a guy on defense who can't/won't tackle is quite limited, especially anywhere but CB.

2) Safeties are the last line of defense. Generally speaking, you can get away with having your "lesser" players there, because they are only there to clean up the mistakes others have already made. Cooper might be our best defender. Defenses whose best player is a S are generally not good. Do we really want our best defensive player at S?

"Do we really want our best defensive player at S?"

"only there to clean up the mistakes ?"

"Defenses whose best player is a S are generally not good."


You are kidding, right?!

Try telling that to the D coordinators who coached Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, John Lynch, Roonie Lot, Troy Pala-whatever.. ETC. Just look at Indy without Bob sanders, that D is totally different when he is in the lineup

We play a lot of cover 2 and cover 3. if you dont have 2 safeties that can cover half of the field, while still providing solid run support, the whole system falls apart.

So yes, i would love to have my best player back there

 

[Thunderlips]

Don't want to hijak the royston thread.

Simoni Lawrence was listed at 205 on the 2008-2009 roster, and since cooper is listed at 210 on the 2010-2011 roster while an update on his facebook fan page recently said that he was 205, i would say that lawrence was closer to 200 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season.

cooper is a redshirt sophomore and weighs 205, lawrence was 200 as a junior. because i think that cooper has a better nose for the ball, seems like he is a better tackler (from limited action) and is faster than lawrence, i am not going to worry about him playing this year at between 205 and 210.

He is putting on weight exactly as he should to keep it lean and flexible, slowly. if he keeps up the good work he should be playing at 220 as a junior (lawrence's listed weight as a senior) and 230+ as a senior while running a 4.4.

he was playing LBer last year at sub-200 and looked like the best player on the field (albeit raw) so let's not get too worked up about him being undersized.

brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside.

there are plenty of options for safety (mostly untested, but whose going to take cooper's spot if he moves to safety?). Brewster has mentioned Christyn Lewis being impressive at safety, Shady salomon should and will get plenty of time at safety now, hershel thornton coming in from scranton next fall is supposed to be a mature player and has great size, kenny watkins is the future and it looks like the future is now. collado could fit in nicely at safety in a pinch too.

"brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside."

And thats what scares me. The badgers O-Linemen absolutely destroyed Simoni Lawrence last year. The whole 2nd half, he was on his back side on most running plays. OSU did the same thing

200lbs LBs will work against spread teams like Cal and Northwestern. But the big pigs from Sconie, OSU ETC will run at them all day long

I love Cooper, and i think he is one of our best players, but i just feel that he doesnt have the frame to be a Linebacker. I have seen him in person, and he is maybe 5'11.

Lets all hope i eat my words at the end of this season.

 

[dpodoll68]

"Do we really want our best defensive player at S?"

"only there to clean up the mistakes ?"

"Defenses whose best player is a S are generally not good."


You are kidding, right?!

Try telling that to the D coordinators who coached Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, John Lynch, Roonie Lot, Troy Pala-whatever.. ETC. Just look at Indy without Bob sanders, that D is totally different when he is in the lineup

We play a lot of cover 2 and cover 3. if you dont have 2 safeties that can cover half of the field, while still providing solid run support, the whole system falls apart.

So yes, i would love to have my best player back there

First of all, note how I said "generally." This, by definition, does not mean "all". Anyone can cherry-pick examples, but that in no way disproves the overall point.

And, great examples to pick, by the way.

Ed Reed: Not usually the best player on his own defense. That was almost always Ray Lewis.

Sean Taylor: Good player who played on mediocre-to-terrible teams all four years of his too-short career. That proves the "defense not good" part of the equation.

John Lynch: Again, never the best player on his own defense. That was always Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Ronde Barber, Simeon Rice (take your pick).

Troy Polamalu: Overrated player who was never as good as any of the Steelers LBs (Farrior, Harrison, Woodley, Bell - again, take your pick).

"Roonie Lot": Assuming you meant Ronnie Lott, then you actually have one valid example, and the exception that proves the rule.

Furthermore, what the hell does this have to do with anything? You are talking about the NFL - theoretically, all those players are the best in the world at what they do. Of course the safeties are going to be good! Further, if they suck or get hurt, you can cut or bench them and trade for players to replace them, or promote their backup (who, by the way, was a stud in college as well). As you are well aware, colleges don't have this luxury. They only have a limited number of players, and, barring a walk-on off the street who sets the world on fire, have to roll with who they have. And, since the talent pool is limited, if you must "short" yourself in an area on defense due to lack of talent and/or depth, safety is the place to do it. It's been told time and again how safeties are quite often the guys who are too slow to play CB, but not quite big enough to play LB.

Good job, though, at using a cherry-picked list of some great (and not-so-great) NFL safeties to "disprove" a point about depth and scarcity of talent in college football. You really showed me.

 

[Plinnius]

The badgers O-Linemen absolutely destroyed Simoni Lawrence last year. The whole 2nd half, he was on his back side on most running plays.

Didn't the entire back seven pretty much get destroyed?

 

[AhliBobwa]

Don't want to hijak the royston thread.

Simoni Lawrence was listed at 205 on the 2008-2009 roster, and since cooper is listed at 210 on the 2010-2011 roster while an update on his facebook fan page recently said that he was 205, i would say that lawrence was closer to 200 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season.

cooper is a redshirt sophomore and weighs 205, lawrence was 200 as a junior. because i think that cooper has a better nose for the ball, seems like he is a better tackler (from limited action) and is faster than lawrence, i am not going to worry about him playing this year at between 205 and 210.

He is putting on weight exactly as he should to keep it lean and flexible, slowly. if he keeps up the good work he should be playing at 220 as a junior (lawrence's listed weight as a senior) and 230+ as a senior while running a 4.4.

he was playing LBer last year at sub-200 and looked like the best player on the field (albeit raw) so let's not get too worked up about him being undersized.

brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside.

there are plenty of options for safety (mostly untested, but whose going to take cooper's spot if he moves to safety?). Brewster has mentioned Christyn Lewis being impressive at safety, Shady salomon should and will get plenty of time at safety now, hershel thornton coming in from scranton next fall is supposed to be a mature player and has great size, kenny watkins is the future and it looks like the future is now. collado could fit in nicely at safety in a pinch too.

+1 absolutely correct. Size means more on the line and at inside backer than it does on the outside. Also, if you're worried about the LBs wearing down like last year against Wisconsin then you should want more depth at LB, not less. Just cause Cooper is starting doesn't mean he is going to play every down. If you're playing against John Clay you want to be able to cycle in fresh guys in the front 7 as much as possible to prevent getting worn down as a unit by the constant abuse. I am excited for the Gophers to face those teams with a lot of guys to rotate in.

 

[lakesgopher]

oiu

Didn't the entire back seven pretty much get destroyed?

I believe we can have a smaller sized linebacker on the outside if our dline is as big and and as talented as many of us our being told they are. from what I saw at the scrimmage was a very large group of dlinemen that should eat up space so our lb's don't have to be these 6'3" 250 lbs mutants. as long as the dline does their job cooper will be fine

 

[MGGopher]

I'm one who made a comment in my scrimmage recap about Cooper being pretty small, so I feel I should jump in here. If Cooper is used in the same ways as Lawrence was the past two years (and I'm sure he will be), then I see no problems at all. Lawrence roamed the edges freely, blitzed frequently from the outside, played a lot of coverage (making our defense a 4-2-5, in essence), and generally seemed to play "off the line" without inside running lane responsibilities quite a bit. Fine, and all things Cooper can do well. The reason I sort of sat up and noticed Cooper's size on Saturday was that the staff had him doing a lot of "other" things in the that didn't seem to fit his skill set. They were lining him up 3-4 yards off the ball, assigning him gap responsibilities in the box, and having him stunt inside the tackle regularly (and from where I was sitting, he was just getting absolutely washed out with ease). Anyway, I understand it was just a scrimmage and our defense was likely playing very vanilla without much regard to personnel, but to me Cooper's size really stood out for the above reasons.

 

[oleboy41]

"brewster likes undersize LBers, at least outside."

And thats what scares me. The badgers O-Linemen absolutely destroyed Simoni Lawrence last year. The whole 2nd half, he was on his back side on most running plays. OSU did the same thing

200lbs LBs will work against spread teams like Cal and Northwestern. But the big pigs from Sconie, OSU ETC will run at them all day long

I love Cooper, and i think he is one of our best players, but i just feel that he doesnt have the frame to be a Linebacker. I have seen him in person, and he is maybe 5'11.

Lets all hope i eat my words at the end of this season.

Lack of size wasn't the issue in that game, the main problems were poor angles being taken and our DEs doing an absolutely horrible job at either containing the end or stretching the play out. On top of that our MLB wasn't able to get outside to blow the play up. When you're pulling a guard and also leading with a 250lb FB/TE there aren't too many college LBs that can just blow that up alone. Smaller LBs succeed all the time in college. Auburn had a great D a few years back with their best two players being 210lb and 220lb LBs.

 

[MV.]

Lack of size wasn't the issue in that game, the main problems were poor angles being taken and our DEs doing an absolutely horrible job at either containing the end or stretching the play out. On top of that our MLB wasn't able to get outside to blow the play up. When you're pulling a guard and also leading with a 250lb FB/TE there aren't too many college LBs that can just blow that up alone. Smaller LBs succeed all the time in college. Auburn had a great D a few years back with their best two players being 210lb and 220lb LBs.

OB speaks the truth; the SEC/ACC are packed with 210-220 lbs 'backers. Besides, stopping Becky/Herky starts by blowing up their pulling guards in the backfield, something Kirksey and Hulk are better at than Small and Brown.

 

[Frod0]

More speed = more inertia = more PAIN!

 

[Goldteam]

our DE's were terrible in run support and then it extends to the outside linebackers

my biggest thing this year is our DE's.........can we just once have defensive ends hold the point

 

[KoolAid]

Cooper belongs in the flats.

If you want to keep him at LB and give him the flats - perfect. If you want to stick him at SS and give him flat responsibility - fantastic.

Just make sure everyone else knows where they need to be.

 

[Thunderlips]

First of all, note how I said "generally." This, by definition, does not mean "all". Anyone can cherry-pick examples, but that in no way disproves the overall point.

And, great examples to pick, by the way.

Ed Reed: Not usually the best player on his own defense. That was almost always Ray Lewis.

Sean Taylor: Good player who played on mediocre-to-terrible teams all four years of his too-short career. That proves the "defense not good" part of the equation.

John Lynch: Again, never the best player on his own defense. That was always Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks, Ronde Barber, Simeon Rice (take your pick).

Troy Polamalu: Overrated player who was never as good as any of the Steelers LBs (Farrior, Harrison, Woodley, Bell - again, take your pick).

"Roonie Lot": Assuming you meant Ronnie Lott, then you actually have one valid example, and the exception that proves the rule.

Furthermore, what the hell does this have to do with anything? You are talking about the NFL - theoretically, all those players are the best in the world at what they do. Of course the safeties are going to be good! Further, if they suck or get hurt, you can cut or bench them and trade for players to replace them, or promote their backup (who, by the way, was a stud in college as well). As you are well aware, colleges don't have this luxury. They only have a limited number of players, and, barring a walk-on off the street who sets the world on fire, have to roll with who they have. And, since the talent pool is limited, if you must "short" yourself in an area on defense due to lack of talent and/or depth, safety is the place to do it. It's been told time and again how safeties are quite often the guys who are too slow to play CB, but not quite big enough to play LB.

Good job, though, at using a cherry-picked list of some great (and not-so-great) NFL safeties to "disprove" a point about depth and scarcity of talent in college football. You really showed me.

This is like having a conversation about football with my 7 year old nephew.


Tell ya what….Do a little homework on how defenses work, Safety and OLB assignments especially, then maybe we can continue this discussion. FYI I hear the library has some great material on the subject

 

[grunkiejr]

Can anyone confirm that cover 2 is our base package?

Confirmed.

 

[grunkiejr]

It was Thornton who delayed his college career altruisticly. He is very mature and will likely be more play now-ready than most I would think. He is 22 years old.

Tillman graduated HS in 2004.

 

[PriceyGopher21]

Here are my two thoughts on the subject:

1) Size is less important than read/recognition and good tackling ability. Sure, it's great to have all three, but I would definitely take the other two over size. You can make a guy bigger, but a guy on defense who can't/won't tackle is quite limited, especially anywhere but CB.

2) Safeties are the last line of defense. Generally speaking, you can get away with having your "lesser" players there, because they are only there to clean up the mistakes others have already made. Cooper might be our best defender. Defenses whose best player is a S are generally not good. Do we really want our best defensive player at S?

Thats not true at all. I would actually say teams that have great safetys have the best defenses. Ed Reed, Troy Polomalu, Darren Sharper, Bob Sanders. All those Safteys are on top defenses in the league when they are healthy

 

[dpodoll68]

Thats not true at all. I would actually say teams that have great safetys have the best defenses. Ed Reed, Troy Polomalu, Darren Sharper, Bob Sanders. All those Safteys are on top defenses in the league when they are healthy

Did you even read the thread?

Again, what relevance do NFL safeties have to college football (besides the fact that none of those mentioned have ever been their team's best defender outside of Sanders)? This is a college football board. We are talking about college football. You idiots are acting like it's some great revelation that NFL players are good.

Tell you what....name me one, just one DI-A national champion in the history of college football whose best defender was a safety, and I will retract my point. Let me know how that turns out for you.

 

[PriceyGopher21]

Did you even read the thread?

Again, what relevance do NFL safeties have to college football (besides the fact that none of those mentioned have ever been their team's best defender outside of Sanders)? This is a college football board. We are talking about college football. You idiots are acting like it's some great revelation that NFL players are good.

Tell you what....name me one, just one DI-A national champion in the history of college football whose best defender was a safety, and I will retract my point. Let me know how that turns out for you.

The relevance between the NFL and College football is that is still football. 11 men on Offense and Defense. The biggest difference is the talent. Ed Reed was the heart and soul of Miami's defense. Although it was a very talented team, he was still the leader. There is your ONE player in the history of college football. If not Reed, how about Ronnie Lott. Lott led the nation with eight interceptions his senior year. The Trojans, with Lott as the defensive leader, were 39-7-2 during his career and, won the 1978 national championship. He averaged 20 + yards per return on his interceptions and returned two for touchdowns. He also posted 250 career tackles.. To say the safety is a position where you dont need your best athlete is just plain dumb. He has to be fast enough to cover receivers, strong enough to take on blocks and stop the run, smart enough to notice if its a run or pass. And when he screws up the offense is most likely gonna score because he is your last line of defense whereas when ur Linebacker screws up or a lineman you have people behind them to save there asses. Also you said Sanders was the only player I named who was the best. Troy Polamalu is the best on his team. Sharper played the best on the Saint last year.

 

[dpodoll68]

The relevance between the NFL and College football is that is still football. 11 men on Offense and Defense. The biggest difference is the talent. Ed Reed was the heart and soul of Miami's defense. Although it was a very talented team, he was still the leader. There is your ONE player in the history of college football. If not Reed, how about Ronnie Lott. Lott led the nation with eight interceptions his senior year. The Trojans, with Lott as the defensive leader, were 39-7-2 during his career and, won the 1978 national championship. He averaged 20 + yards per return on his interceptions and returned two for touchdowns. He also posted 250 career tackles.. To say the safety is a position where you dont need your best athlete is just plain dumb. He has to be fast enough to cover receivers, strong enough to take on blocks and stop the run, smart enough to notice if its a run or pass. And when he screws up the offense is most likely gonna score because he is your last line of defense whereas when ur Linebacker screws up or a lineman you have people behind them to save there asses. Also you said Sanders was the only player I named who was the best. Troy Polamalu is the best on his team. Sharper played the best on the Saint last year.

Fine, great. I retract. Safeties are fantastic. I've said many times on here how they are consistently drafted in the Top 10 and are usually the highest-paid players on NFL defenses.

(P.S. I know that once every ten years or so a safety is the best player on a national champion. It was a test. You forgot Michael Huff, by the way. Going back to my original point, I said generally, not all. I think having a non-safety being your best player well over 90% of the time safely meets the standard for "generally". Do people even read anymore before their panties are thoroughly twisted?)

 

[PriceyGopher21]

Honastly i didnt read the whole thread. i saw that one post. I had that debate with a friend of mine a month back and just wanted to show my opinion.