Colt, Elbows, and the rules

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Section201

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I am watching the replay of yesterday's disaster on the BTN. 12 plus minutes left in the second half and Colt takes a rebound and is immediately surrounded by 2 Hoosiers. Colt is holding the ball above his head and turning on his axis. A Hoosier is right on his chest and practically inside Colt's jersey. In turning and spinning Colt's elbow smacks the Hoosier in the face.

Colt has to sit with his 4th foul. My question is this, is an "elbow' an automatic foul? Doesnt the ball handler have a right to some space and the right to have elbows?

This call seems bogus to me.
 

I thought the same thing. I haven't seen the replay but look to me like Colt's arms were almost stuck up in the air above the defenders, and all he was doing was bringing them down to his body. To me what he did is different then someone whose arms are already down and they start swinging their elbows around. I do not know the rule though.
 

gopher7

gopher7 said:
I thought the same thing. I haven't seen the replay but look to me like Colt's arms were almost stuck up in the air above the defenders, and all he was doing was bringing them down to his body. To me what he did is different then someone whose arms are already down and they start swinging their elbows around. I do not know the rule though.
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EXACTLY !
 

Lame call. He has nowhere to go with the ball if they are going to call elbows everytime he turns his body. I believe that is what they teach the big men to do. Create some room. I found it interesting that the defenders can basically maul him to try and strip the ball or tie him up, but as soon as a shorter defender (who is at the right height) takes one in the chops, its an automatic foul.
 

Every Ref in the Big Ten has seen clips of the Iverson elbow to Nix. He won't get away with anything for a while- legal or not. He needs to understand that.
 


bga1

bga1 said:
Every Ref in the Big Ten has seen clips of the Iverson elbow to Nix. He won't get away with anything for a while- legal or not. He needs to understand that.
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So what is Colt supposed to do in that situation? His arms are up. If he brings them down he clobbers the opponent.

:confused:
 

bga1 said:
Every Ref in the Big Ten has seen clips of the Iverson elbow to Nix. He won't get away with anything for a while- legal or not. He needs to understand that.
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bga1, you are exactly right - the word is out on Iverson among B10 officials. Anything even remotely construed to be overly agressive or dirty will be whistled immediately. And coaches around the league are telling their kids to stand in there when Iverson has the ball and harass him to try and draw a foul.

Best solution for now? Probably for him to find an outlet pass as quick as possible.
 

""And coaches around the league are telling their kids to stand in there when Iverson has the ball and harass him to try and draw a foul.""

And take a direct shot to the chops? I doubt it.
 

Maybe he needs to cause some stitches before the defenders back off a little. Neither elbow was a foul. Colton was fouled before his elbow hit Nix or the Hoosier. He didn't swing, he didn't do anything except get fouled. Ref's were being homers and overly cautious. Not that I condone causing stitches...
 



Gopher Bandanna Guy said:
bga1, you are exactly right - the word is out on Iverson among B10 officials. Anything even remotely construed to be overly agressive or dirty will be whistled immediately. And coaches around the league are telling their kids to stand in there when Iverson has the ball and harass him to try and draw a foul.
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And you know this how? Last time I looked, correspondence from the league office doesn't get broadcast to the masses.
 

GopherRock said:
And you know this how? Last time I looked, correspondence from the league office doesn't get broadcast to the masses.
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Just making an educated guess and agreeing with bga1 - not saying I know. Just seems like a pretty good bet that the conference refs have seen the tape from the MSU game, since it was likely an instructional moment. Remember that play stopped for a couple minutes to review that play, so the officials were clearly concerned with how Nix ended up face down on the floor. Another shot to the face given by the same player in the following game, you can bet the word is getting around on Iverson among refs. They don't live in pods only to emerge right before game time, and they definitely aren't impartial all the time.
 

Iverson's elbows?

People like Karl Malone, Barkley, Shaq have been rebounding with that technique for 30 years both at the college and nba level. It's not an offensive foul unless he's using the elbow as a weapon. He is supposed to be allowed space to pivot, turn, etc.
 

None of this would've happened....

If the refs had called the foul on Nix (and others) during the MSU game. Watch the replay!!!! Nix fouls Colton twice on that play (the second time with a blatant chop across the arm)....what is Iverson supposed to do? It was happening the whole game and none of it was called. It's also dissapointing if the refs are making an example of Iverson despite that fact that Nix has gone on record as indicating he "milked" the injury.

As for the IU game...same thing. Guys hacking at our big men after they have the ball. If u look at the play in this game, Colton doesn't even raise his elbows. He turns, IU guy has chested up to him and his elbow makes contact.
 




I was watching highlights on ESPN and a guy from Syracuse was called for a similar situation - only in my opinion this guy used a clean aggressive pivot to clear space and caught the other player square in the chops. The talking heads explained the rule as... The player must either have his elbows above his head or in in tight next to his sides. This is the first time I've heard this translation of the rules, so I don't know if this is a recent change. I always thought the player had the right to pivot, turn, and protect the ball as long as he is not using them as a weapon. I also thought the defender was supposed to be called for a foul if they reach in or hack the offensive player...

I think Colt needs to pivot to get the defender behind him (make the reach in more obvious) then look for the outlet.
 

Elbow

New to this so hopefully it all works. Iverson faced this issue (apparently) :

Proposed May 2009 by the Men’s Basketball Rules committee; approved June 2009 by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel. Prepared by Ed Bilik, NCAA Men’s Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor

2. Excessive Swinging of the Elbows.
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of emphasis.
When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a violation has been committed.
When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to be excessive. However, the contact is illegal and a foul shall be assessed.

Iverson did swing with a speed that exceeded the rest of his body and he was trying to bring the ball down. He is competitive, and doesn't want to lose the ball. Bringing the ball down is a natural defensive action, the arms are stronger on a ball held lower.

I understand the rule is a player safety issue. But a good sister rule would be that harassment from the defender should end within 2 seconds or the rule regarding defending the ball (above)
is loosened. Just my humble opinion.
 

mac

macgopher said:
New to this so hopefully it all works. Iverson faced this issue (apparently) :

Proposed May 2009 by the Men’s Basketball Rules committee; approved June 2009 by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel. Prepared by Ed Bilik, NCAA Men’s Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor

2. Excessive Swinging of the Elbows.
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of emphasis.
When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a violation has been committed.
When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to be excessive. However, the contact is illegal and a foul shall be assessed.

Iverson did swing with a speed that exceeded the rest of his body and he was trying to bring the ball down. He is competitive, and doesn't want to lose the ball. Bringing the ball down is a natural defensive action, the arms are stronger on a ball held lower.

I understand the rule is a player safety issue. But a good sister rule would be that harassment from the defender should end within 2 seconds or the rule regarding defending the ball (above)
is loosened. Just my humble opinion.
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mac... thanks for the rule. I agree with your "sister rule".
 

Elbows are always a tough call...especially when some guys intentionally go stick their face in there *ahem* Kramer *ahem*
 

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