Coach Ken. Can triple option work here?

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Interesting read on his mentor, who was hired at about the same time as Brewster.

On December 7, 2007, Johnson accepted the head coaching job at the Georgia Institute of Technology.[1][4] Johnson, who came to Georgia Tech in December after a six-year tenure at Navy, inherited a young roster with reduced numbers because of an NCAA probation. Only 76 players were on scholarship, below the maximum of 85, including three senior walk-ons who were awarded scholarships prior to the start of the season. The roster included 75 freshmen and sophomores; 16 of 22 starters were underclassmen.[1][5] Sports Illustrated predicted Johnson's first Yellow Jacket team would win three games and finish fourth in the Atlantic Coast Conference's Coastal Division.
In 2008, Johnson led the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets to a 9–4 record. Georgia Tech was 6–1 at home in games played at Bobby Dodd Stadium and 4–2 against ranked opponents, including three wins in November against Florida State, Miami, and Georgia. Georgia Tech, ranked 14th in the BCS standings and 15th in the AP Poll, finished the regular season with a 9–3 record. Though they tied for first place in their division with a 5–3 conference record, the Yellow Jackets failed to advance to the ACC Championship Game by virtue of an early-season loss to eventual ACC champion, Virginia Tech. Georgia Tech accepted a bid to the Chick-Fil-A Bowl, where they were defeated by LSU, 38–3.
Johnson's 2008 Georgia Tech team featured one first-team All-American (Michael Johnson), the ACC Player of the Year (Jonathan Dwyer), and eight first team, second team, and honorable mention All-ACC selections.[6] On December 2, 2008, Johnson was tabbed as ACC Coach of the Year by the Atlantic Coast Sports Media Association (ACSMA). "This is an honor for the football program at Georgia Tech, the coaching staff and the players," Johnson said. "There are a lot of great coaches in the ACC, so it's humbling to win such a prestigious honor."[citation needed] Johnson was also named 2008 National Coach of the year by CBSSports.com on the same day.
In 2009, Johnson led the Yellow Jackets to an 11–3 record, including the school's first win at Florida State in school history, and a victory over #4 Virginia Tech in Atlanta, which broke a 17-game home losing streak to top five opponents, and the program's first win over Virginia in Charlottesville since 1990.[7] After a defeat at the hands of Miami in the third week of the season, Georgia Tech won its next eight games, rising as high as #7 in the AP Poll, before losing to unranked rival Georgia in Atlanta to end the regular season. Georgia Tech finished a league-best 7–1 in ACC play and defeated Clemson in the ACC Championship Game for the school's first outright conference championship since 1990.
Following the end of the regular season, Johnson received ACC Coach of the Year honors for the second consecutive year, becoming the only Georgia Tech head coach in history to win the award in his first two seasons. The Yellow Jackets were paired in the Orange Bowl with the 10th ranked Iowa Hawkeyes. Iowa beat Georgia Tech 24–14, sending Johnson to 0–2 in bowls at Georgia Tech.
In 2010, Georgia Tech started the season ranked 16th in the AP Poll.
 

more triple option

Much of Johnson's success was predicated on his triple option flexbone offense, a run-oriented attack that has led NCAA Division I-A/FBS football in rushing yards three of his last four years at Navy. Some have criticized the triple option as an antiquated, unbalanced system unfit for major college football, which may have explained the reluctance of some top programs to offer him a position despite his accomplishments at both Georgia Southern and Navy. Johnson rebutted this argument in numerous press conferences and interviews, asserting that several top teams, including 2005 national champion Texas and 2006 national champion Florida, used various forms of the option. In 2008, Johnson told ESPN's Mark Schlabach: "If we can run it against Boston College at Navy, why can't we run it against Boston College at Georgia Tech? If we can beat Pitt with this system at Navy, why can't we beat Pitt at Georgia Tech? Are we going to get worse players at Georgia Tech?"[citation needed]
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I think the defenses are too athletic in the Big 10 for a "pure" option offense to perform consistently well. My guess is Ken N., if selected as our coach, would recognize that and try to incorporate some elements in the offense that would move the safeties back.
 

50PoundHead said:
I think the defenses are too athletic in the Big 10 for a "pure" option offense to perform consistently well. My guess is Ken N., if selected as our coach, would recognize that and try to incorporate some elements in the offense that would move the safeties back.
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The flexbone is a "spread" offense, with four immediate vertical threats. It is also predicated on beating teams with play-action when the safeties come up. If you've got the athletes, I'm not sure any offensive scheme puts more pressure on the defense to be perfect on every play.

It's out of fashion because the NFL doesn't run it. Good schemes work when they have good athletes and are well coached.
 


Anyone who still wants Minnesota to run the triple option did not watch the Army, Notre Dame game last night.

It can be painful to watch.
 

i'm batman said:
Anyone who still wants Minnesota to run the triple option did not watch the Army, Notre Dame game last night.

It can be painful to watch.
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Anyone wanting a pro-style offense did not watch the Georgia State-Alabama game Thursday night.

The number of posts on here that try to determine the (dis)qualification of a coach based on a single game observation are astounding.

Navy beat Notre Dame 35-17. That doesn't mean Coach Niumataolo ought to be brought in.

I think Coach Niumataolo would be a terrific fit. As has been mentioned, Paul Johnson has been an unambiguous success, and he showed that success is possible right away. I personally think the spread option (or triple option if you prefer) is an exciting, dynamic offense that has big play potential every snap of the ball. I am not going to look up the statistics, but the 3O teams often lead the country in plays exceeding 20+ yards.


While I agree the Big Ten does possess some very good defenses, the SEC is every bit as strong defensively, if not more so. Paul Johnson is 4-2 against the SEC, 0-1 against the BT, and 6-4 against the ACC's best defenses in VT, Clemson, and UNC. Frankly, most of these losses are not attributable to the offense. His teams have been absolutely dreadful defensively all three years at GT.
 

Shores Esq said:
The flexbone is a "spread" offense, with four immediate vertical threats. It is also predicated on beating teams with play-action when the safeties come up. If you've got the athletes, I'm not sure any offensive scheme puts more pressure on the defense to be perfect on every play.

It's out of fashion because the NFL doesn't run it. Good schemes work when they have good athletes and are well coached.
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I guess that explains why Navy and Georgia Tech pass the ball so much and so well. All I'm saying is that a team is going to need a more sophisticated passing attack than what Johnson or Ken N. run to succeed in the Big 10.
 

50PoundHead said:
I guess that explains why Navy and Georgia Tech pass the ball so much and so well. All I'm saying is that a team is going to need a more sophisticated passing attack than what Johnson or Ken N. run to succeed in the Big 10.
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I wasn't aware that a sophisticated passing attack is necessary to win in the Big 10. Apparently it's my imagination that Wisconsin is on the brink of winning the conference and leading the league in offense, yet is ninth in passing.
 



Shores Esq said:
I wasn't aware that a sophisticated passing attack is necessary to win in the Big 10. Apparently it's my imagination that Wisconsin is on the brink of winning the conference and leading the league in offense, yet is ninth in passing.
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But they can pass very well and Chryst has put some interesting wrinkles in the passing game. Tolzien has thrown an average of 20 passes per game and Dobbs has thrown around 13. The combination of quarterbacks at Georgia Tech has also thrown around 13 passes a game. And Wisconsin could have thrown a lot more--and more effectively--if they had to.

All I'm saying is you have to have a semblance of balance and I don't see the flex-bone as being that balanced an offense. Sure the defense has to be perfect against it, but the offense relies on an extremely high level of precision as well.
 

I would love for the Gophers to feature a run-first/pass next week offense. As someone else observed, any offense will work as long as you have the personnel and the players execute.

Are there any good single-wing coaches available out there?
 

50PoundHead said:
But they can pass very well and Chryst has put some interesting wrinkles in the passing game. Tolzien has thrown an average of 20 passes per game and Dobbs has thrown around 13. The combination of quarterbacks at Georgia Tech has also thrown around 13 passes a game. And Wisconsin could have thrown a lot more--and more effectively--if they had to.

All I'm saying is you have to have a semblance of balance and I don't see the flex-bone as being that balanced an offense. Sure the defense has to be perfect against it, but the offense relies on an extremely high level of precision as well.
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Yep. It's a very complex offense. It's all predicated on timing, and if that timing gets disrupted then you're liable to be bumming. But when it's on, it is a thing of beauty and it can be really, really difficult to stop.

As to whether it would work here and work in the Big Ten, I don't see why not. You just have to be totally committed to it (no wiffle-waffling around like Brewster did), and just bring it the right athletes to run it, and that would take a little while.
 

Another thing about running the triple option or the wishbone is that you've got to have a premiere athlete at the quarterback position, as he is the guy who is orchestrating the entire show.

Looking back over the last 30 years at some of the great option QBs I've seen, Jamelle Hollieway, Turner Gill, Tommie Frazier, Darian Hagan, Ricky Foggie, Major Harris, Joe Hamilton, Dee Dowis, Tracy Ham, Marvin Graves, Beau Morgan, JC Watts, Tony Rice, Eric Crouch, Charles Thompson, Thomas Lott - all of them were superior athletes.

It's a pretty rare skill-set in my opinion, to have the necessary quickness of foot and thought along with the decisiveness and sense of timing required to pull the whole thing off successfully.
 



Nice list of QBs. I'd be curious to see how Pryor would do running a pure option.

I want a "run first" offense, but I believe what they do at Iowa and Wisconsin are "run first" offenses. It's just that in those sets, you can do more with the passing offense in terms of sophistication and there are games when you are going to need that.

While throwing for less yards this season (by a fair margin), Tolzien's completion percentage is awesome this year. The run/pass ratio has tilted run more heavily for Wisconsin this year, but the way they run the ball really complements a passing game that can have all kinds of wrinkles. I just don't think one can do that--or at least do it as readily--out of the Navy/Georgia Tech framework.

I agree that if you went with it, you'd have to go in full bore. There's no "halfway" with that offense.
 

50PoundHead said:
Nice list of QBs. I'd be curious to see how Pryor would do running a pure option.

I want a "run first" offense, but I believe what they do at Iowa and Wisconsin are "run first" offenses. It's just that in those sets, you can do more with the passing offense in terms of sophistication and there are games when you are going to need that.

While throwing for less yards this season (by a fair margin), Tolzien's completion percentage is awesome this year. The run/pass ratio has tilted run more heavily for Wisconsin this year, but the way they run the ball really complements a passing game that can have all kinds of wrinkles. I just don't think one can do that--or at least do it as readily--out of the Navy/Georgia Tech framework.

I agree that if you went with it, you'd have to go in full bore. There's no "halfway" with that offense.
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Demariyus Thomas was GT's deep threat WR from last year, and was the *first* WR taken in the NFL draft. He averaged over 25 yards per catch. Of course, he was not one of Johnson's recruits, and almost certainly would have not wound up at GT, but big play potential is definitely there. Ricky Dobbs, Navy's excellent option QB, has made some huge passes this year.

As a die hard fan of the 3O, I can say that QB protection is a bit of a worry. The OL from the 3O offense is by design smaller yet quicker to block in the second level. Not surprisingly pass protection can suffer, as has been the case with GT this year (then again their OL is very young).

It can be done, although I would concede that it does pose some challenges. It all comes down to fit - virtually any offense can be run successfully with the right personnel executing at a high level.

Interesting side note: Navy won a game last year without even *attempting* a pass!
 

I'm not saying Thomas isn't a great receiver or that you can't throw out of that system. I'm saying that you just can't get that much sophistication into the passing offense in that set. It's a very-much dialed back passing offense. Thomas is extremely big and extremely fast--and you watch a lot more of Georgia Tech than I do I am certain--but can you say that Thomas was used to the utmost of his ability in Tech's offense? They got the most out of him given the offensive scheme, but was there anything left on the table?

My point is that from my observation of option-type offenses over the year is that they really aren't that flexible. Dobbs has made some great throws. Nesbitt (although he had accuracy problems) made some great throws when he was healthy. But could either of them do it consistently or when it had to be done? I'm not dumping on these guys because they were recruited to run this particular offense, but I just don't see the passing games as being that sophisticated. That puts extra pressure on your offense to run the ball extremely well and your defense to never let the other team get two touchdowns ahead.

I still think what Wisconsin does is a great model and the way we should try to go.
 

The only thing that concerns me about Navy's offense (because I do think any offense can work anywhere) is that it is usually used to make up for the fact that it is difficult to get large lineman into the service schools. Well, one of the state of MN's biggest assets (probably it's only consistant asset) is that we do seem to produce a decent amount of large lineman.

However, if they thought he was the best coach available, that's what we need more than anything.
 

The problem with the triple option is, when you play in a conference with physical defense, your QBs get hurt.
When you play in a conference with fast secondary players, the big gains are very limited.
When you play in a conference with lots of NFL quality DL players, there are negative plays.
If you get a negative play with the triple option, you can pretty much bank on a punt.

You can use various forms of the option in your scheme, if you are exclusively option, what you can do is very limited.

The ACC champion GT team would have been a 5th or 6th place team in the Big Ten last year.
 

If you can't run you will not have success passing. And vice versa, if you can't pass you won't be able to run. Wisc.(ouch) can do both.
 


littlebigboy said:
If you can't run you will not have success passing. And vice versa, if you can't pass you won't be able to run. Wisc.(ouch) can do both.
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You can run without passing.
You can pass without running.

You can't win championships while only running in a league with great run defenses.
 

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