Children shot and killed in Mlps

Pompous Elitist

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Police work is actually not that dangerous in terms of annual fatalities. So death should not be the expectation. Again, you're just throwing conjecture around.

Well, this item could cause a tangent in terms of police/unjustified shootings. Shall we talk numbers, then?
 

forever a gopher

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Police work is actually not that dangerous in terms of annual fatalities. So death should not be the expectation. Again, you're just throwing conjecture around.
https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states

According to this link, it's number 22 on the list. Probably not as high as some probably expect.

Of course, being an unarmed black person shot by police is also obscenely rare. But we've had many many millions of dollars in damage and numerous deaths related to the riots surrounding these. It would seem both sides can maybe just calm down a little and look at the data and realize it's not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be?
 

Nax5

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Well, this item could cause a tangent in terms of police/unjustified shootings. Shall we talk numbers, then?
My point was that you believed an officer was as good as dead if they hesitated or didn't get trigger happy. But the numbers certainly don't support that.
 


Pompous Elitist

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My point was that you believed an officer was as good as dead if they hesitated or didn't get trigger happy. But the numbers certainly don't support that.

Has it crossed your mind more officers would be dead if they weren’t using aggressive vigilance and submission tactics? Then your death statistics would make you a little less smug?
 


Nax5

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Has it crossed your mind more officers would be dead if they weren’t using aggressive vigilance and submission tactics? Then your death statistics would make you a little less smug?
I have thought about it. But there's no proof of causation there.
 

STPGopher

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Police work is actually not that dangerous in terms of annual fatalities. So death should not be the expectation. Again, you're just throwing conjecture around.
Furthermore (from a solutions perspective), if it wasn't possible then, it would be in the public's best interest to look at other options for officers now. Perhaps something as simple as retracting and observing till other units can arrive would be an option. St. Paul, St. Anthony, Minneapolis, Roseville, U of M, and other municipalities could potentially come to aid?

https://knsiradio.com/2021/05/07/we...ud-hostage-situation-over-suspect-in-custody/

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesot...-cloud-wells-fargo-hostage-situation-unfolded
 

STPGopher

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Has it crossed your mind more officers would be dead if they weren’t using aggressive vigilance and submission tactics? Then your death statistics would make you a little less smug?
Do you think it is worth looking into ways to improve outcomes that don't rush to escalation of force?
 

Section2

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Oh stop it. Lies like this are part of why no one respects you. The mockery is not of a man's death & you know it. It's of the NAACP pretending George Floyd was "an American hero". You can be against the police killing citizens while still being grounded in reality, and here in reality, George Floyd was a troubled, drug addicted criminal, not "an American hero".
The left loves making victims “heroes”.
 



STPGopher

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Go ahead, tough guy.

He had every option to not reach for the gun despite instruction, as well.
Do we know that he was reaching for his gun? Was he reaching for his conceal and carry papers?

Furthermore, can we learn from this?

Different scenario: What if this guy wasn't smart and calm while being barraged with conflicting instructions?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/11/us/windsor-virginia-police-stop-army-lieutenant-lawsuit/index.html

Would the outcome have been different?
 

STPGopher

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The left loves making victims “heroes”.
Perhaps for some?

This sounds reasonable to me. ""The growing conversation about the role of policing in this country is essential to the strength and progression of our nation,"

 

Section2

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Perhaps for some?

This sounds reasonable to me. ""The growing conversation about the role of policing in this country is essential to the strength and progression of our nation,"

It is reasonable. And George Floyd is not a hero. He’s a victim. Having a panic attack and being uncooperative are not heroic actions.
 

GopherJake

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It is reasonable. And George Floyd is not a hero. He’s a victim. Having a panic attack and being uncooperative are not heroic actions.
I agree with this. If anyone calls him a hero, they are misusing the term. He is definitely a victim. And quite obviously a symbol.
 



STPGopher

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It is reasonable. And George Floyd is not a hero. He’s a victim. Having a panic attack and being uncooperative are not heroic actions.
Semantics are important to you. I am not stating that out of ridicule, I am just stating that it is important to you. That is reasonable.

I think what may be more palatable is if it were mentioned that he did not die in vain. His death brought about change.
 

Section2

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Semantics are important to you. I am not stating that out of ridicule, I am just stating that it is important to you. That is reasonable.

I think what may be more palatable is if it were mentioned that he did not die in vain. His death brought about change.
Creating heroes out of victims has been going on a long time in this country, and it’s a very destructive trend, because people now aspire to be victims. I don’t think that’s semantics.
 

STPGopher

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Creating heroes out of victims has been going on a long time in this country, and it’s a very destructive trend, because people now aspire to be victims. I don’t think that’s semantics.
You are making some good points. Sometimes a free society can get heavy.

Regarding semantics, a point in this is that to many it took the death of Mr. Floyd to finally have a long needed discussion(s).


Regarding the bold, I don't know that people aspire to be victims. Especially not dead victims. What some do is utilize an event to make points/ draw attention to causes. This has been done for a very long time. Is it more pronounced now? Has the speed of information (and other factors) skewed things/ perceptions? Perhaps.
 

Spoofin

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One: Did I say that?
Yep. Your exact words were "The officer appeared to be influenced by 'warrior' training.
Don't take my word for it.......
The officer appeared to be influenced by 'warrior' training.
So, if you didn't learn that from watching the video you were discussing, where did the officer "appear" to be influenced by 'warrrior' training?
 

STPGopher

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Yep. Your exact words were "The officer appeared to be influenced by 'warrior' training.
Don't take my word for it.......

So, if you didn't learn that from watching the video you were discussing, where did the officer "appear" to be influenced by 'warrrior' training?
Okay, now I am following your comment. Read the links. Many involved made those determinations.

Am I stalking you?
 

Spoofin

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Okay, now I am following your comment. Read the links. Many involved made those determinations.

Am I stalking you?
So you actually have no idea what you are talking about - simply making a statement based on what someone else said. Powerfull.
 

stocker08

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I think we agree here. That bad policing plays a role. What is rarely discussed is the impact that poor policing has on good officers.

I find it odd that 'we' as a society are resistant to fixing something that is potentially fixable.

100%. I've said from the beginning that the "defund the police" thing was moronic.....not that it had any actual legs. Some reform could be be done....but really....it comes down to the cops, policing their own. If someone in their station has a history of stereotypical behavior.....that really can only be addressed from within. Problem is that there is a fraternity within the policing realm that causes them to look the other way when it comes to abuses of power. Speaking out against another seems to be frowned upon.....even if it's internally. Hell....there's a very good chance that at least one of the two trainees during the GF incident wanted to speak up....but didn't want to step out of line.

I personally don't think badly of police officers because of the few bad apples. It's a tough and mostly thankless job. Certainly dangerous at times. But the fact is that some get into the profession for the wrong reasons. Some want the badge because it grants them an authority that common citizens don't have. I've certainly encountered a few complete dickheads on a powertrip.
But....pertinent to the current discussion....the badge has given officers an unhealthy degree of immunity for too long. The Walter Scott shooting is a perfect example. Without the video recorded evidence of what happened....Slager would have almost definitely gotten off without jailtime. All because police officers word trumps basically everything else. When nobody is around to witness what happens....the authority account is taken as gospel.


Altogether makes the right wing stance on this stuff very odd. Up until recently it's been mostly unchecked power. So why does the right wing refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem? Why do they complain nonstop about the government abusing their freedom....when police departments have long had the (unopposed) authority to do whatever they want without repercussion.....even if it is only a handful of officers abusing the power?

Is it a coincidence that Noor got twelve years in prison for shooting a white women who snuck up on him and his partner in their car....while other officers shoot black people and get off with the defense that they were afraid for their lives?
 

STPGopher

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So you actually have no idea what you are talking about - simply making a statement based on what someone else said. Powerfull.
That is your interpretation. I am well aware of your following my threads and making comments. Feel free to comment as you wish. For clarity, the point was/ is I am not the only one that made those points.

Meanwhile I will discuss with others tactics including de-escalation, and whether or not external training should be acceptable.

Now your turn to answer a question. Who is stalking?
 

STPGopher

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100%. I've said from the beginning that the "defund the police" thing was moronic.....not that it had any actual legs. Some reform could be be done....but really....it comes down to the cops, policing their own. If someone in their station has a history of stereotypical behavior.....that really can only be addressed from within. Problem is that there is a fraternity within the policing realm that causes them to look the other way when it comes to abuses of power. Speaking out against another seems to be frowned upon.....even if it's internally. Hell....there's a very good chance that at least one of the two trainees during the GF incident wanted to speak up....but didn't want to step out of line.

I personally don't think badly of police officers because of the few bad apples. It's a tough and mostly thankless job. Certainly dangerous at times. But the fact is that some get into the profession for the wrong reasons. Some want the badge because it grants them an authority that common citizens don't have. I've certainly encountered a few complete dickheads on a powertrip.
But....pertinent to the current discussion....the badge has given officers an unhealthy degree of immunity for too long. The Walter Scott shooting is a perfect example. Without the video recorded evidence of what happened....Slager would have almost definitely gotten off without jailtime. All because police officers word trumps basically everything else. When nobody is around to witness what happens....the authority account is taken as gospel.


Altogether makes the right wing stance on this stuff very odd. Up until recently it's been mostly unchecked power. So why does the right wing refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem? Why do they complain nonstop about the government abusing their freedom....when police departments have long had the (unopposed) authority to do whatever they want without repercussion.....even if it is only a handful of officers abusing the power?

Is it a coincidence that Noor got twelve years in prison for shooting a white women who snuck up on him and his partner in their car....while other officers shoot black people and get off with the defense that they were afraid for their lives?
If I may add to IMHO an excellent post, reviewing all of this gives 'us' (society) a chance to see if we can help policing move forward so it is better situated to serve future needs. Mental Health and substance abuse issues come to mind.
 

stocker08

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I guess there’s nothing Castile could have done.

Nobody said that. But you have been laying the blame at his feet exclusively from the very start. Chances are that he would be alive today if he had chosen to NOT tell the officers that he had a gun. The officer in the video reacted immediately when Castile said that he had a firearm. Any rational person would understand that he told the officer because he wanted to disclose the fact in case the weapon was found.

But a black man with a wide nose and a firearm? Even though he himself told the officers about it? Well......incredible threat. 10% of people (ALL PEOPLE) in ten different states have conceal permits. Fifteen states have made constitutional carry (no permit needed) a thing.


Isn't this what the right wants? More people to be carrying guns? So why is it that the guy who tells the cops that he has a firearm in the vehicle shot....and the righties say "good job police man"?
 

Section2

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You are making some good points. Sometimes a free society can get heavy.

Regarding semantics, a point in this is that to many it took the death of Mr. Floyd to finally have a long needed discussion(s).


Regarding the bold, I don't know that people aspire to be victims. Especially not dead victims. What some do is utilize an event to make points/ draw attention to causes. This has been done for a very long time. Is it more pronounced now? Has the speed of information (and other factors) skewed things/ perceptions? Perhaps.
The “conversation” trope is a little tired to me. I guess we are reassessing policing, but seems to me that cities are now reversing course and hiring more police than before.

Yes, it’s tragic if police abuse causes death. But many more have died in the violent aftermath, including many innocent children. I’m of the opinion that there is way too much law enforcement in the US, but I blame politicians and ignorant voters over cops.

Floyd will certainly change policing by making cops more hesitant, slower to respond, and criminals will be emboldened (that has been the biggest change). But an optimist might think that cops will be less likely to be abusive and use excessive force.
 

Section2

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Is it a coincidence that Noor got twelve years in prison for shooting a white women who snuck up on him and his partner in their car....while other officers shoot black people and get off with the defense that they were afraid for their lives?
this is a really stockerish interpretation of that incident. Wow. Sneaking up! Woman in her Jammies calls cops and walks out to greet them when they arrive is “sneaking”. Very woke though stocker. Your social credibility score is intact. She was white.
 

stocker08

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Semantics are important to you. I am not stating that out of ridicule, I am just stating that it is important to you. That is reasonable.

I think what may be more palatable is if it were mentioned that he did not die in vain. His death brought about change.
Creating heroes out of victims has been going on a long time in this country, and it’s a very destructive trend, because people now aspire to be victims. I don’t think that’s semantics.

It isn't semantics, deuce. Semantics is the game you play on an everyday basis with your ever changing definitions....fit to your arguments.

Floyd ISN'T a hero. All the praise....and the worship....and the murals....just make me shake my head. He's not a hero. But he is a symbol. He's a symbol of the the abuse that black folks have taken at the hands of police officers for decades. As I said earlier....police officers have typically gotten away with it because their word holds weight.

Times are changing and the righties are scared. White people in power don't get to intimidate and abuse minorities any longer. But hell if they aren't going to continue to make excuses for it.
 

STPGopher

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Yep. Your exact words were "The officer appeared to be influenced by 'warrior' training.
Don't take my word for it.......

So, if you didn't learn that from watching the video you were discussing, where did the officer "appear" to be influenced by 'warrrior' training?
Learn to read.

You really seem attracted to me. Why Spoofin? You've already stated that you don't appreciate my takes on...anything. Why bother. Are you bored?

You accuse me of stalking you, yet you go out of your way to reply to my posts. Again, why?
 

stocker08

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this is a really stockerish interpretation of that incident. Wow. Sneaking up! Woman in her Jammies calls cops and walks out to greet them when they arrive is “sneaking”. Very woke though stocker. Your social credibility score is intact. She was white.

Interpretation? BOTH officers pulled their guns when she appeared at car. Neither saw her walking up. What you are assuming is that they saw her and Noor decided to shoot her regardless. Nope. Noor shot because he was shook. As I already said....probably shouldn't have been a gun carrying officer. And....I never said that his sentence wasn't warranted.

Meanwhile.....you and the other righties are continuing to excuse the killing of black folks. Earning the deplorable tag in spades.
 

STPGopher

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It isn't semantics, deuce. Semantics is the game you play on an everyday basis with your ever changing definitions....fit to your arguments.

Floyd ISN'T a hero. All the praise....and the worship....and the murals....just make me shake my head. He's not a hero. But he is a symbol. He's a symbol of the the abuse that black folks have taken at the hands of police officers for decades. As I said earlier....police officers have typically gotten away with it because their word holds weight.

Times are changing and the righties are scared. White people in power don't get to intimidate and abuse minorities any longer. But hell if they aren't going to continue to make excuses for it.
Yes poor word choice on my part. Section 2 is correct there. Basically what you said in bold is what I was attempting to imply. The incident spoke to the nation in a way that could be heard.
 

stocker08

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Yes poor word choice on my part. Section 2 is correct there. Basically what you said in bold is what I was attempting to imply. The incident spoke to the nation in a way that could be heard.

There is a misplaced term here. Hero is the wrong word that certain people are using. That implies that Floyd did this out of selflessness and cause. Not the case. Martyr is more applicable here....even though it also doesn't fit the definition perfectly. Black people have long been distrustful of the police. And for good reason. GF gave them a platform and an example to rally behind. And there's no question that his death is going to lead to palpable change.

Once again....the old white man party of the right has been scrambling to make excuses for why it was GFs fault. Don't want to lose that stranglehold on the minorities.

Times are changing. Let the right wing follow Trump into hell.
 




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