can we reach a final 4 without

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go-for-gold

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recruiting 4 & 5 star athletes? can tubby & his staff develop the existing talent & talent they are recruiting into a group good enough to reach the final 4 & realistically compete for a title? or do they need to step up recruiting to include some potential one & done players?
 

go-for-gold said:
recruiting 4 & 5 star athletes? can tubby & his staff develop the existing talent & talent they are recruiting into a group good enough to reach the final 4 & realistically compete for a title? or do they need to step up recruiting to include some potential one & done players?
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One & Done players are not a minimum requirement. Most FF teams have not had them.

It's false to infer that Minnesota only recruits 3 Star players. Royce was 5* and Rodney, Ralph, Devoe, and Trevor were 4* recruits.
 


FF teams are either a few one & dones or are senior heavy with a ton of possible NBA prospects. pick one. cinderellas dont usually follow the pattern..obviously
 

No need to look further than Butler and George Mason to see it can be done. Butler almost won the whole thing. In the era of one and done, 4 year 3 stars can be a greater sum than one year and done freshmen. So yeah, I think we'll do just fine this year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us start doing better in the NCAA tournament than we do in the Big 10. We just need one guy to develop as a super star and we'll go a long ways...
 


Sparlimb said:
No need to look further than Butler and George Mason to see it can be done. Butler almost won the whole thing. In the era of one and done, 4 year 3 stars can be a greater sum than one year and done freshmen. So yeah, I think we'll do just fine this year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us start doing better in the NCAA tournament than we do in the Big 10. We just need one guy to develop as a super star and we'll go a long ways...
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Gordon Hayward?
 

One and Done

I'm not opposed or in favor of one and done recruits. If one of them has an interest, why wouldn't we be interested? But to spend time chasing them and then trying to convince them to come to Minnesota, without them first expressing an interest would be a poor use of time. IMO

But what we do need are some top 150 rated players. Certainly we are a strong enough program that if we do the job well that is realistic. That is the program's deficiency lately. And we can't just land those in the top 150 guys with all the question marks. Consistency. At least a couple guys of that caliber each year.

Tubby is nationally respected. Why is that not happening? Why all the projects? All the question mark people? Any one of the guys we have coming in could blossom into a star. I get that. We could hit the lottery. They are here. I'm going to root hard for them to be successful! But virtually none of them are touted by anyone but FOT and the individual players AAU coach, or scouting service publicist whose jobs it is to exaggerate the players wow factor. Tubby has got to do better than that in recruiting. I know whoever they are they'll play hard and compete for Tubby. That's not the point. Why is winning the Big Ten not the goal instead of praying we don't fall out of the top five?
 







60's Guy said:
I'm not opposed or in favor of one and done recruits. If one of them has an interest, why wouldn't we be interested? But to spend time chasing them and then trying to convince them to come to Minnesota, without them first expressing an interest would be a poor use of time. IMO

But what we do need are some top 150 rated players. Certainly we are a strong enough program that if we do the job well that is realistic. That is the program's deficiency lately. And we can't just land those in the top 150 guys with all the question marks. Consistency. At least a couple guys of that caliber each year.

Tubby is nationally respected. Why is that not happening? Why all the projects? All the question mark people? Any one of the guys we have coming in could blossom into a star. I get that. We could hit the lottery. They are here. I'm going to root hard for them to be successful! But virtually none of them are touted by anyone but FOT and the individual players AAU coach, or scouting service publicist whose jobs it is to exaggerate the players wow factor. Tubby has got to do better than that in recruiting. I know whoever they are they'll play hard and compete for Tubby. That's not the point. Why is winning the Big Ten not the goal instead of praying we don't fall out of the top five?
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Top 150 players per NATIONALLY RESPECTED analyst Bob Gibbons:

2008 - Sampson, Joseph, and Iverson.

2009 - White, Williams, Mbakwe, and Cobbs.

2010 - Hollins, Walker, and Eliason.

2011 (targets) - Coleman, Oglesby, Brogdon, Hollins, and Tharpe ALL Top 150.
 




Still not top 5, but Gophers aren't that far off

Why is winning the Big Ten not the goal instead of praying we don't fall out of the top five?

Agree with you that as we hit Year 4 of Tubby's regime Big Ten championships should be the goal, but even so we're still not there yet. Steps have been taken, but the truth is we're still not even in the top 5 of the Big Ten. Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Purdue and Wisconsin all have better programs at this point, and I wouldn't expect Indiana to be down for too much longer.

The good news is -- despite last year's off-court circus and the signing of arguably a couple warm bodies -- I still think the program is fine. In terms of total program, I can see the Gophers passing at least 2 of the above-mentioned 5 in a short order of time. As BGA said earlier this week, start having more success on the court (certainly possible in the next couple years with the experienced players we'll have) and the rest will start falling into place.
 

Why is there an apparent perception that we don't have any talent on this team? There's plenty here to work with. Final Four? Maybe not, but I wouldn't be shocked if in March 2012, we're discussing the possibility of making it. It's also possible that we're still talking bubble at that point, but I feel good about our chances to at least progress upward in the Big Ten and become a contender in the next few years. I think last year was just a terrible year as far as the stuff that went on, and I hope that we're past that now so Tubby can focus solely on getting this program on track toward a Big Ten title.
 

Monty519 said:
Why is there an apparent perception that we don't have any talent on this team? There's plenty here to work with. Final Four? Maybe not, but I wouldn't be shocked if in March 2012, we're discussing the possibility of making it. It's also possible that we're still talking bubble at that point, but I feel good about our chances to at least progress upward in the Big Ten and become a contender in the next few years. I think last year was just a terrible year as far as the stuff that went on, and I hope that we're past that now so Tubby can focus solely on getting this program on track toward a Big Ten title.
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People have very short memories, or unrealistic expectations on how quickly a program is turned around, that's all I can think of.
 




SelectionSunday said:
Why is winning the Big Ten not the goal instead of praying we don't fall out of the top five?

Agree with you that as we hit Year 4 of Tubby's regime Big Ten championships should be the goal, but even so we're still not there yet. Steps have been taken, but the truth is we're still not even in the top 5 of the Big Ten. Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Purdue and Wisconsin all have better programs at this point, and I wouldn't expect Indiana to be down for too much longer.

The good news is -- despite last year's off-court circus and the signing of arguably a couple warm bodies -- I still think the program is fine. In terms of total program, I can see the Gophers passing at least 2 of the above-mentioned 5 in a short order of time. As BGA said earlier this week, start having more success on the court (certainly possible in the next couple years with the experienced players we'll have) and the rest will start falling into place.
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Agree. Look at Painter/Purdue. 9 W, then 22 W, 25 W, 27 W, 29 W. From bottom or nearly so to top or nearly so of B10 standings in 5 years. Nice, steady progression. Solid recruiting, too.

Minnesota MUST get into Top 3 or 4 of B10.
 


Art Vandelay said:
I was referring to the one and done's with Hayward. He was a two and done which really isn't much different.
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And what I meant by Butler was Hayward wasn't a 5 star sure bet to go pro. I'm not sure he's a sure bet to have an average NBA career at this point. Granted, that was a scrappy team and Hayward was their best player. But we'd have to guess he wasn't mailed a box with $100,000 in it or he'd have played at Kentucky (errr Memphis).
 

Depending

Plinnius said:
Lousy facilities?
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JMO...our game venue, Williams Arena is is a plus if it is presented in that vein. I have been to Target Center, The Wild Excel, Indiana, Iowa, Iowa St etc for basketball...I'd pick Wms Arena over those by a thousand times. The sight lines, the acoustics, the resulting atmosphere is unbeatable.

No practice facilty is a definite real problem but ...come on...well, I'd come to Minnesota but team X has a nicer gym to practice in? Come on.

Cold weather? There are tunnels and skyways. Halfa ha...Ok, ya, it gets cold all across the top of the USA. If we lose to Arizona, California, Florida because somebody wanted to play in a warmer climate...real issue. If we lose Mich St or Illinois that ain't why.

Also, back to another comment regarding the talent on the team. We presently have enough talent to win. My fear and that expressed by some others is not the present situation. It is concern about the recent incoming talent reviews being capable replacements for the talent that will be leaving soon.
 

60's Guy said:
I'm not opposed or in favor of one and done recruits. If one of them has an interest, why wouldn't we be interested? But to spend time chasing them and then trying to convince them to come to Minnesota, without them first expressing an interest would be a poor use of time. IMO

But what we do need are some top 150 rated players. Certainly we are a strong enough program that if we do the job well that is realistic. That is the program's deficiency lately. And we can't just land those in the top 150 guys with all the question marks. Consistency. At least a couple guys of that caliber each year.

Tubby is nationally respected. Why is that not happening? Why all the projects? All the question mark people? Any one of the guys we have coming in could blossom into a star. I get that. We could hit the lottery. They are here. I'm going to root hard for them to be successful! But virtually none of them are touted by anyone but FOT and the individual players AAU coach, or scouting service publicist whose jobs it is to exaggerate the players wow factor. Tubby has got to do better than that in recruiting. I know whoever they are they'll play hard and compete for Tubby. That's not the point. Why is winning the Big Ten not the goal instead of praying we don't fall out of the top five?
Click to expand...

+100
 

Sparlimb said:
No need to look further than Butler and George Mason to see it can be done. Butler almost won the whole thing. In the era of one and done, 4 year 3 stars can be a greater sum than one year and done freshmen. So yeah, I think we'll do just fine this year. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us start doing better in the NCAA tournament than we do in the Big 10. We just need one guy to develop as a super star and we'll go a long ways...
Click to expand...

Still, MOST of the time teams that make it to the Final Four are star-laden with a couple serious NBA prospects. Yes, it can be done using a different formula like Butler and G-Mason, but it's not as common. Minnesota seems to be recruiting middle-of-the-pack players. That's OK to do at Wisconsin where Bo Ryan has a distinctive ball-sharing offensive philosophy centered around patience and pin-point execution. Tubby doesn't have that. He's obviously a great basketball mind with excellent defensive strategies, but on offense, I feel like his system needs one or two bona-fide offensive stars to succeed.
 


With all do respect, Top 150 is setting the bar a little low. We play in a major conference...I'd expect any coach here to land players in that category. Not criticizing Tubby's recruiting efforts, but I think it's fair to demand that he brings in a top 15-20 class every year.
 

GopherHomer said:
With all do respect, Top 150 is setting the bar a little low. We play in a major conference...I'd expect any coach here to land players in that category. Not criticizing Tubby's recruiting efforts, but I think it's fair to demand that he brings in a top 15-20 class every year.
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Top 20 class every year? Tubby did that in 1996 and 97 at Georgia. 1998-99-2000-01-02-03-04 and 2006 at Kentucky. Then 2008 and 09 at Minnesota. That's 12 out of 15.

There is no active coach who lands a Top 20 class every year. None, not a one.
 

GopherHomer said:
With all do respect, Top 150 is setting the bar a little low. We play in a major conference...I'd expect any coach here to land players in that category. Not criticizing Tubby's recruiting efforts, but I think it's fair to demand that he brings in a top 15-20 class every year.
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Tubby was not the Gopher coach from 1998 through 2007.

How many Top 20 classes www.rscihoops.com did his predecessor(s) land in 10 years?
 

BigGopherFan said:
Still, MOST of the time teams that make it to the Final Four are star-laden with a couple serious NBA prospects. Yes, it can be done using a different formula like Butler and G-Mason, but it's not as common. Minnesota seems to be recruiting middle-of-the-pack players. That's OK to do at Wisconsin where Bo Ryan has a distinctive ball-sharing offensive philosophy centered around patience and pin-point execution. Tubby doesn't have that. He's obviously a great basketball mind with excellent defensive strategies, but on offense, I feel like his system needs one or two bona-fide offensive stars to succeed.
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You're right in the sense that most often, there are a couple solid NBA prospects on teams that make the Final Four. I wouldn't rule out Butler as being different - Shelvin Mack might yet get drafted & he should be excellent this year. George Mason was the year before the 1 & done era started. I believe it takes more talent now to make the Final Four compared to the time before the 1 & done era. Since the one & done era started, there has been one team with three one & dones make the final four and one mid-major to make the final four (I don't consider Calipari's Derrick Rose/CDR/Dorsey team as a mid-major, plus their season was vacated anyway) - not exactly a sign that it's easy to win with unheralded recruits.
 

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