as a JUCO transfer myself souhan is walkin on the fightin side of me

[KD6-3.7]

i have a problem with maturi's comment and the way it was twisted by souhan:

maturi said before the start of the 2008 season, "we know statistically that junior college kids don't always succeed academically, and that's our biggest concern. our coach knows that, and our staff knows that...

of course they don't always succeed academically, but is there a segment of the student population that always succeeds academically?

i would like to know exactly how JUCOs "kids" stack up against "kids" enrolling out of high school. do they wash out at a higher rate?

i am willing to wager that statistically JUCO transfers actually do as well as those enrolling out of high school (taken the entire JUCO transfer student population).

how many JUCO guys have not succeeded in the last four years? tremain brock.

how many are succeeding? (out of the seniors alone) david pittman, traye simmons, simoni lawrence, rex sharpe, marcus singletary, logan u'u, cedric mckinley, derrick onwachi, eric small (academic all-big ten).

i don't think that souhan can establish a trend of JUCO transfers as academic liabilities until he can name more than one academic wash out.

 

[littlebigboy]

Don't feel slighted, Souhan is an idiot!!!! If he knocks something the opposite is probably true.

 

[gophergrad]

Excellent points bigtenchamps. I don't think I've ever mentioned your avatar is excellent. Anytime you wanna go all america over Souhan's ass, I'm totally down.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Bigtenchamps ~

If Souhan is ripping it, you are probably doing something right.

 

[MNBadgerGuy]

Since you yourself are a JUCO guy, I mean no offense by this, but there is obviously a difference academically between students that excelled in high school and could gain acceptance to a quality university right after high school, to those students that had to go to Junior College because they couldn't get into a 4 year university after high school. Sure, after those kids got through JC they have a good chance of being successful academically at a University, but I'd put my money on the kids that, for whatever reason, were smart enough to learn what they needed to do to get into a University in the first place.

I'm not saying Junior College = Stupid Kids, but I would venture to guess that the academic ability of a kid who gained acceptance to the U straight from high school would tend to be greater than those who took a year or two at junior college before matriculating to the U. And I don't think Maturi, someone who has a lot of experience dealing with these things directly, would make that statement if there wasn't truth to it.

 

[ncgo4]

Bigtenchamp, you are an idiot (LOL)! Since when does a prominent Mpls - St. Paul pundit need to base an epistle on facts? Phat Pat & Souhan, in particular, can't even be bothered with the facts and they don't care. Sir Sid does care but at his age has to leave much of the research and fact checking to others with predictable results. Unfortunately the Twin Cities sports press is following the lead of national political news as spoken by Fox news (right) and MSNBC (left).

 

[Schnoodler]

Since you yourself are a JUCO guy, I mean no offense by this, but there is obviously a difference academically between students that excelled in high school and could gain acceptance to a quality university right after high school, to those students that had to go to Junior College because they couldn't get into a 4 year university after high school. Sure, after those kids got through JC they have a good chance of being successful academically at a University, but I'd put my money on the kids that, for whatever reason, were smart enough to learn what they needed to do to get into a University in the first place.

I'm not saying Junior College = Stupid Kids, but I would venture to guess that the academic ability of a kid who gained acceptance to the U straight from high school would tend to be greater than those who took a year or two at junior college before matriculating to the U. And I don't think Maturi, someone who has a lot of experience dealing with these things directly, would make that statement if there wasn't truth to it.

I think you might be wrong. I'd love to see stats on this. JUCO's have proven something as well. Such as the ability so get to class and do their homework. Also they've shown proven committment to higher education. I would argue the first and second most important traits to graduating.

 

[rudy]

Since you yourself are a JUCO guy, I mean no offense by this, but there is obviously a difference academically between students that excelled in high school and could gain acceptance to a quality university right after high school, to those students that had to go to Junior College because they couldn't get into a 4 year university after high school. Sure, after those kids got through JC they have a good chance of being successful academically at a University, but I'd put my money on the kids that, for whatever reason, were smart enough to learn what they needed to do to get into a University in the first place.

I'm not saying Junior College = Stupid Kids, but I would venture to guess that the academic ability of a kid who gained acceptance to the U straight from high school would tend to be greater than those who took a year or two at junior college before matriculating to the U. And I don't think Maturi, someone who has a lot of experience dealing with these things directly, would make that statement if there wasn't truth to it.

I see what you're saying but there are many JUCOs that went to JUCO or prep school because they weren't getting the offers that they wanted out of high school. They may have been only getting d1aa offers instead of the big ten schools that they desired.

 

[Brew_recruit]

its fact, If juco kids are good enough to play D1 then they had bad grades in High School or messed up legally when they were in HS or college. They are a risk and top programs usually only get 1 a year if they are smart.

 

[50PoundHead]

Are we talking JUCO athletes are JUCO attendees in general. I think a lot of the non-athletes in junior college attend there for a number of reasons. Number one on the list is probably cost. Number two is that some of the smaller school districts in the state lack the breadth of program necessary to supply their students with the background necessary to gain acceptance at the four-year schools. Further, some kids just aren't sure what they are going to focus on at the college level and, as I pointed out in number one, given the cost of college these days, neither parents or students want to rack up a ton of debt trying to figure out what there major is going to be.

It's probably a little different with JUCO athletes, as for them it probably boils down to academic achievement or lack thereof, but that doesn't necessarily mean these kids are bad students. A lot of these kids haven't gotten the academic help they need at the secondary level until it's too late.

Junior (or community depending on what term you prefer) colleges are a vital part of the nation's education landscape and their students shouldn't be looked down upon.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

its fact, If juco kids are good enough to play D1 then they had bad grades in High School or messed up legally when they were in HS or college. They are a risk and top programs usually only get 1 a year if they are smart.

Alabama:
Signed 3 JuCo kids

Oklahoma:
Have two offers out for a Juco QB, a JuCo OT and have signed 1.

Texas Tech:
Signed 3 JuCo kids


Brewster_Recruit must know something that Nick Saban, Bob Stoops, and Mike Leach don't.

 

[Handsome Pete]

i have a problem with maturi's comment and the way it was twisted by souhan:

maturi said before the start of the 2008 season, "we know statistically that junior college kids don't always succeed academically, and that's our biggest concern. our coach knows that, and our staff knows that...

of course they don't always succeed academically, but is there a segment of the student population that always succeeds academically?

i would like to know exactly how JUCOs "kids" stack up against "kids" enrolling out of high school. do they wash out at a higher rate?

i am willing to wager that statistically JUCO transfers actually do as well as those enrolling out of high school (taken the entire JUCO transfer student population).

how many JUCO guys have not succeeded in the last four years? tremain brock.

how many are succeeding? (out of the seniors alone) david pittman, traye simmons, simoni lawrence, rex sharpe, marcus singletary, logan u'u, cedric mckinley, derrick onwachi, eric small (academic all-big ten).

i don't think that souhan can establish a trend of JUCO transfers as academic liabilities until he can name more than one academic wash out.

I bet JUCO transfers do better academically per capita than "regular" enrollees in any college.

 

[maxwellsmart]

I think you might be wrong. I'd love to see stats on this. JUCO's have proven something as well. Such as the ability so get to class and do their homework. Also they've shown proven committment to higher education. I would argue the first and second most important traits to graduating.

Thank you yet again. More common sense is a welcome respite here. Keep up the good work. I had a good friend who played JC ball in California many years ago before ending up at UCLA. He didn't do it because he needed to mature academically, it was because he was determined to play for the Bruins and they had no spots when he graduated HS. As a junior he played wide out, sharing snaps with a darn good (I think previous year all-american qualifies for that title) player. I need to have Souhan or anyone else who presumes that JUCO players are inferior to prove the point, not just throw it out there as accepted fact.

 

[Calgoph]

Thank you yet again. More common sense is a welcome respite here. Keep up the good work. I had a good friend who played JC ball in California many years ago before ending up at UCLA. He didn't do it because he needed to mature academically, it was because he was determined to play for the Bruins and they had no spots when he graduated HS. As a junior he played wide out, sharing snaps with a darn good (I think previous year all-american qualifies for that title) player. I need to have Souhan or anyone else who presumes that JUCO players are inferior to prove the point, not just throw it out there as accepted fact.

I can vouch for the California JUCO system. Academically, it is a feeder system to the UC schools. My daughter went to a JUCO for 2 years and then got her BA at UC San Diego. That is not an easy school to get in and my daughter's story is far from rare. UC Berkeley has a very small freshman class each year because they know they will be bringing in a lot of transfers that have proven themselves in the JUCO system (and elsewhere too, of course).

Athletically, your friend's story isn't all that rare either. There are instances each year of football players turning down scholarships to instead go JUCO because they want a chance to play in the PAC-10 or at a comparable level.

Lots of schools in the PAC-10 will typically carry 15+ JUCO players on their squad and that will include USC and Cal (I counted the rosters once about 4 years ago). Stanford is an exception. I haven't paid attention since Harbaugh arrived, but they used to get a JUCO player about once every 10 years.

I used to like Souhan when he was a baseball writer. As a columnist.... I am very unimpressed.

 

[KD6-3.7]

i actually went to a junior college in california before transferring to minnesota.

my junior college had transfer agreements with the UC and cal state systems (as did most JUCOs in california). there was a list of requirements (keep a certain GPA, take certain classes) that if a student fulfilled she would be guaranteed transfer. one of my good friends transferred to berkeley using this agreement.

i agree with schnoodler and others that JUCO students who transfer to universities are a step ahead because they have to learn college study habits and have to attend classes regularly. it teaches students the skills that most high school students need to learn on the fly at a university.

of course there are many differences between JUCO athletes and non-athletes, but as has also been stated, there are many reasons besides grades that a player might take the JUCO route. the JUCO system in california is basically a d-league for division one universities. a player might not have received the offers he wanted out of high school and playing two years at a junior college could prove to those division one schools that they can play.

i am really not upset at souhan for calling out JUCO players. he is too detached from reality for anything that he writes to get me worked up. i just happened to be listening to merle at the time and somehow "we don't smoke marijuana in muskokee" just didn't seem to fit.

 

[50PoundHead]

It's always been my impression that the California has been light years ahead of the rest of the country in the incorporation of its junior college system into its state system as a whole. It's probably contributed to some of the fiscal issues currently being faced in California over time, but there's no denying that California has viewed the availability of post-secondary education as something central to the state's long-term success and have made certain that there junior college system is on a par with the first and second years in the state university system.

 

[MNBadgerGuy]

It's always been my impression that the California has been light years ahead of the rest of the country in the incorporation of its junior college system into its state system as a whole. It's probably contributed to some of the fiscal issues currently being faced in California over time, but there's no denying that California has viewed the availability of post-secondary education as something central to the state's long-term success and have made certain that there junior college system is on a par with the first and second years in the state university system.

Not saying you guys are wrong or I am right, but if anyone is a fan of Adam Carolla, either his now dead radio show or his current podcast, he himself, a Californian and product of LA Valley CC, would say that the California school system is so far whacked that its beyond saving. I obviously don't know enough to say that is a true statement, but it sounds like it doesnt take too great of study habits to get through some California Jucos.

As to the person that pointed out Alabama is taking 3, Oklahoma 1, and Texas Tech 3...well what's your point? People on this board are always ripping posters who use a couple examples to prove their point. Do you want the U to be like Alabama, Oklahoma, or Texas Tech academically? How many Jucos a year do Stanford, Notre Dame, or Northwestern take? See, I can throw out a few schools and 'prove' my point that Jucos are academic risks.

 

[50PoundHead]

Like Adam Carolla's word is probably golden on this. LOL.

I'm older and have worked in education policy for a few decades and had the opportunity to meet with several high-ranking members of the California JC system back in the 1980s. Granted, we're a couple of decades beyond that and things may have changed, but the California JS system during that era was modeled to be the equivalent of the basic educational requirements of the first two years at branches of the state system. Further, California modeled the system to allow all students to have access to a college education.

Like everywhere else in the country, California has changed a lot over the past few decades. Proposition 13 put pressure on resources for the K-12 system by capping the property tax portion paid to schools. California's demography has also changed more markedly than most other states, requiring the K-12 system to provide a wider range of services to get non-English speaking and students with other learning challenges up to high school graduation standards. I don't doubt that these pressures have changed the role of the California JC system to some extent, but I don't doubt that a student going there to get their basic requirements out of the way can get that done.

 

[STPGopher]

Not saying you guys are wrong or I am right, but if anyone is a fan of Adam Carolla, either his now dead radio show or his current podcast, he himself, a Californian and product of LA Valley CC, would say that the California school system is so far whacked that its beyond saving. I obviously don't know enough to say that is a true statement, but it sounds like it doesnt take too great of study habits to get through some California Jucos.

As to the person that pointed out Alabama is taking 3, Oklahoma 1, and Texas Tech 3...well what's your point? People on this board are always ripping posters who use a couple examples to prove their point. Do you want the U to be like Alabama, Oklahoma, or Texas Tech academically? How many Jucos a year do Stanford, Notre Dame, or Northwestern take? See, I can throw out a few schools and 'prove' my point that Jucos are academic risks.

It depends, many players (read sleepers) go that route. Many players are eligible after only one season/ year at Jucos. That is because they were okay to begin with. There is nothing wrong with plugging a hole in the rouster with a JUCO. Depending heavily on JUCOs is another matter.