Anti trust claim filed Jeffrey Kessler challenges NCAA amateur model

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I, along with many others, predicted this type of lawsuit (never expected them to get Kessler) and fully expect the NCAA to lose. No entity no matter how "voluntary" you may think it is, can make billions while restricting compensation to the ones who primarily generate the revenue. It is un-American and at the basis for all our collective bargaining rights and employee rights.

I fully expect the future of big time college football and basketball is going to look like professional minor leagues where teams are sponsored by schools.
 

Good. Let's hope this is the lawsuit that finishes off the NCAA.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
Good. Let's hope this is the lawsuit that finishes off the NCAA.
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Really? My reaction to reading this is that it will create a baseball-like system, where the SEC schools are the Yankees and the Gophers are the Twins. I suppose you could argue that's the way it already is -- that the schools willing and able to spend an exorbitant amount of money on big time sports are already doing it (in the form of perks like facilities) and their boosters are already paying the players.

To me, this could end up eliminating true college sports. College sports would become the equivalent of European club teams. At most, club teams could have affiliations with local universities to provide education for their players, and maybe they work in concert to recruit, but I just don't see universities themselves ever openly paying players millions of dollars.
 

WanderingGopher said:
Really? My reaction to reading this is that it will create a baseball-like system, where the SEC schools are the Yankees and the Gophers are the Twins. I suppose you could argue that's the way it already is -- that the schools willing and able to spend an exorbitant amount of money on big time sports are already doing it (in the form of perks like facilities) and their boosters are already paying the players.

To me, this could end up eliminating true college sports. College sports would become the equivalent of European club teams. At most, club teams could have affiliations with local universities to provide education for their players, and maybe they work in concert to recruit, but I just don't see universities themselves ever openly paying players millions of dollars.
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I'm with you. Cash to athletes legally and college sports are over. I am in the group that suggests the scholarship is a pretty good "wage" already. If the guys need better insurance, assistance to finish degrees after playing days are over, etc. I'm all for it. But cash for playing in leagues where very few guys (as a precentage of the total) will ever get paid to play is a bad idea. Dividing up the spoils will be even harder. Baseball coaches say dividing up the limited scholarship money for their players is the hardest thing they have to do. It would be brutal in football or basketball as well.
 


Holy Man said:
I'm with you. Cash to athletes legally and college sports are over. I am in the group that suggests the scholarship is a pretty good "wage" already. If the guys need better insurance, assistance to finish degrees after playing days are over, etc. I'm all for it. But cash for playing in leagues where very few guys (as a precentage of the total) will ever get paid to play is a bad idea. Dividing up the spoils will be even harder. Baseball coaches say dividing up the limited scholarship money for their players is the hardest thing they have to do. It would be brutal in football or basketball as well.
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The issue is the NCAA acts like a cartel through collusion and price fixing. Their practices are absurdly illegal. They use amateurism as a shameless shield to protect themselves. It worked for decades, but the rule of law is breaking through.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
The issue is the NCAA acts like a cartel through collusion and price fixing. Their practices are absurdly illegal. They use amateurism as a shameless shield to protect themselves. It worked for decades, but the rule of law is breaking through.
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Since I've asked you this question several times, and you refuse to answer, I guess I'll ask again: if paying 18-20 year olds to pay professional football is a viable enterprise, why is there not a single league on Earth that does it? There are literally thousands of businessmen who'd turn on their own mother for a buck, and not a single one of them will attempt to tap into this virtually limitless supply of money? Give me a break.
 

Gopherguy0723 said:
The issue is the NCAA acts like a cartel through collusion and price fixing. Their practices are absurdly illegal. They use amateurism as a shameless shield to protect themselves. It worked for decades, but the rule of law is breaking through.
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Good lord. No one is forcing these kids to go to college. At best, the NFL/NBA requiring kids to play X years in college may be illegal, but that is an issue for those leagues and not the NCAA. IIRC, both leagues have changed their rule to 'you have to be out of high school for X years.'
 

dpodoll68 said:
Since I've asked you this question several times, and you refuse to answer, I guess I'll ask again: if paying 18-20 year olds to pay professional football is a viable enterprise, why is there not a single league on Earth that does it? There are literally thousands of businessmen who'd turn on their own mother for a buck, and not a single one of them will attempt to tap into this virtually limitless supply of money? Give me a break.
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CBS paid 11 BILLION to the NCAA for the rights to the tournament.

Limitless? Darn close.
 



BarnBurner said:
CBS paid 11 BILLION to the NCAA for the rights to the tournament.

Limitless? Darn close.
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And the NCAA earns not a single thin dime from football. But you already knew that, didn't you?
 

BarnBurner said:
CBS paid 11 BILLION to the NCAA for the rights to the tournament.

Limitless? Darn close.
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Yes. And those 11 billion pay for thousands of women's rowing and men's soccer teams, etc. There is no single player or group of players that make the NCAA tournament worth 11 billion.
 

howeda7 said:
Good lord. No one is forcing these kids to go to college. At best, the NFL/NBA requiring kids to play X years in college may be illegal, but that is an issue for those leagues and not the NCAA. IIRC, both leagues have changed their rule to 'you have to be out of high school for X years.'
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The NBA doesn't require you to be in college. They require you to be out of high school. They offer a "minor league" where you can be paid and Europe offers an opportunity to be paid. Kids choose to play NCAAB for the coverage and experience. They turn down opportunities to be paid. That is why this bothers me from the basketball side.

Football side I can at least see the argument since there isn't an alternative. The NFL does force you to either go to college or train away from actually playing a game before going pro.

Just as much as the NCAA profits from the players, the players do benefit outside of scholarship for being affiliated with a major university that is nationally, even internationally, recognized.
 

If you hate the NCAA so much, follow the NFL and the NBA. Players are free to sign with any pro league that will take them. It's not the NCAA's fault if no pro football or basketball league will sign players out of high school.
 



scher215 said:
The NBA doesn't require you to be in college. They require you to be out of high school. They offer a "minor league" where you can be paid and Europe offers an opportunity to be paid. Kids choose to play NCAAB for the coverage and experience. They turn down opportunities to be paid. That is why this bothers me from the basketball side.

Football side I can at least see the argument since there isn't an alternative. The NFL does force you to either go to college or train away from actually playing a game before going pro.

Just as much as the NCAA profits from the players, the players do benefit outside of scholarship for being affiliated with a major university that is nationally, even internationally, recognized.
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The NBA requires you to be a year out of high school before signing with the D-League.
 

howeda7 said:
Good lord. No one is forcing these kids to go to college. At best, the NFL/NBA requiring kids to play X years in college may be illegal, but that is an issue for those leagues and not the NCAA. IIRC, both leagues have changed their rule to 'you have to be out of high school for X years.'
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Its not illegal and they have every right to put whatever requirements they wish on being eligible for their draft.
 


My issue has never been with the NCAA making money. Nor the schools. My issue has always been on how scholarship athletes are so horribly restricted from making money during their college career.

A scholarship musician can take jobs playing with orchestras, or as a church musician, and make money. A scholarship engineer can have summer internships and make money. A scholarship science student can even be paid through grant money while doing the same work they are required to do to get their degree. (I know several at the U of MN right now doing just this)

But can a basketball player do this? Not in their field - the would immediately be declared ineligible. As a basketball trainer? Severely restricted. As a fitness trainer? Don't even try. And what little they can do to earn some money has so many rules, regulations, and stipulations that it makes it almost impossible to find work that does not cause eligibility problems.

Don't want to pay the athletes a better stipend? Fine. I have no issue with that. But then the NCAA needs to loosen the restrictions on athletes so that they are treated just like other scholarship students - that they can earn money on the side. Does not have to be huge dollars. But most college kids can earn $10,000 in a year working while they are in school. The NCAA just needs to set a reasonable limit.

Will some booster game the system and pay some athlete(s) for little or no work? Yep - it will happen. But in the grand scheme of things, isn't this more fair?
 

RodentRampage said:
The NBA requires you to be a year out of high school before signing with the D-League.
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Not true.

"Latavious Williams is the first player ever to skip college basketball and play a year in the D-League before getting drafted in the NBA. He is also the first player ever to enter into the D-League directly from high school. Williams was, however, the second player to be drafted while playing for a D-League team, as Mike Taylor ended up being drafted a year earlier back in 2009."
 

UST82Gopher said:
My issue has never been with the NCAA making money. Nor the schools. My issue has always been on how scholarship athletes are so horribly restricted from making money during their college career.

A scholarship musician can take jobs playing with orchestras, or as a church musician, and make money. A scholarship engineer can have summer internships and make money. A scholarship science student can even be paid through grant money while doing the same work they are required to do to get their degree. (I know several at the U of MN right now doing just this)

But can a basketball player do this? Not in their field - the would immediately be declared ineligible. As a basketball trainer? Severely restricted. As a fitness trainer? Don't even try. And what little they can do to earn some money has so many rules, regulations, and stipulations that it makes it almost impossible to find work that does not cause eligibility problems.

Don't want to pay the athletes a better stipend? Fine. I have no issue with that. But then the NCAA needs to loosen the restrictions on athletes so that they are treated just like other scholarship students - that they can earn money on the side. Does not have to be huge dollars. But most college kids can earn $10,000 in a year working while they are in school. The NCAA just needs to set a reasonable limit.

Will some booster game the system and pay some athlete(s) for little or no work? Yep - it will happen. But in the grand scheme of things, isn't this more fair?
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Terrible example. If that musician/engineer/business student signed an agreement stating that they could not accept cash for their services while getting a full ride, then they wouldnt be able to do those things either. Do you really think it is the same? If you do, you probably were not smart enough to attend college.
 

die hard gopher said:
Its not illegal and they have every right to put whatever requirements they wish on being eligible for their draft.
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It could be, as they have a monopoly and are essentially the only source of employment, imposing a hardship on those denied employment for no good reason. Baseball has an anti-trust exemption. The other sports don't. That said their rules have nothing to do with the NCAA.
 

Holy Man said:
I'm with you. Cash to athletes legally and college sports are over. I am in the group that suggests the scholarship is a pretty good "wage" already. If the guys need better insurance, assistance to finish degrees after playing days are over, etc. I'm all for it. But cash for playing in leagues where very few guys (as a precentage of the total) will ever get paid to play is a bad idea. Dividing up the spoils will be even harder. Baseball coaches say dividing up the limited scholarship money for their players is the hardest thing they have to do. It would be brutal in football or basketball as well.
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Yep. No cash to players. They get full ride already. With what my kid pays for college a full ride (for five years if redshirted) would be over 130 thousand dollars.
 

DLguy said:
Terrible example. If that musician/engineer/business student signed an agreement stating that they could not accept cash for their services while getting a full ride, then they wouldnt be able to do those things either. Do you really think it is the same? If you do, you probably were not smart enough to attend college.
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BA, MBA.

You beg the question. Why are student athletes the only group required to give up any and all opportunities to earn income over and above their scholarship when all other students who receive scholarships do not have that requirement?

If this is all about students - should not all students be treated equally? Or are athletes not "real" students?
 

UST82Gopher said:
BA, MBA. You beg the question. Why are student athletes the only group required to give up any and all opportunities to earn income over and above their scholarship when all other students who receive scholarships do not have that requirement? If this is all about students - should not all students be treated equally? Or are athletes not "real" students?
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I think this is an interesting argument and I'd say is sort of the "third side"

I can see the argument that players should be able to receive money from sponsors, etc. on their name. That's different than the school paying players. An MBA student can get money for whatever they would like outside of school, but not directly FROM the school.

You could argue Texas A&M doesn't need to pay Johnny Manziel, but he should be able to make money signing autographs for example.

The risk there is you just get boosters not providing a fair market or over paying to get kids to the school. Such as Oregon saying here's $100,000 for an autographed sock.
 

That is exactly what would happen. Some kids playing football in Texas or some other big football program could get paid by boosters which is essentially like paying the players to play for your team
 

UST82Gopher said:
BA, MBA.

You beg the question. Why are student athletes the only group required to give up any and all opportunities to earn income over and above their scholarship when all other students who receive scholarships do not have that requirement?

If this is all about students - should not all students be treated equally? Or are athletes not "real" students?
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How many free meals a day do the athletes get? Last I check the regular students pay for there own. How about the nice nice free housing? Please stop don't play college sports if you don't like it. Just say no I don't want the free scholarship I will pay my own way.

Don't ruin the great game we have right now... the most popular tournament of any sport college or pro
 

Ph.D. students in the hard sciences get paid by the school to go to school.

Some of you are clueless.
 

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. Both sides have their merits. I wonder if there is some sort of creative solution - for example, each FBS team has X amount of dollars to attribute to player pensions. You give the salary minimum based upon a "scholarship" and give extra benefits to stud players. It would be akin to a salary cap. Once players who have pension money leave the school, they can roll the assets into an IRA, or keep it in a pension. If they want to withdraw early from the pension, they are free to do so, per the IRS standards of realizing the income and if it is an early withdrawal, pay a 10% penalty. The pension could be funded by revenues that are generated by the NCAA for that particular sport. Don't get me wrong, there are a number of shortcomings that could arise from this proposal that I can imagine, but I'm just trying to think of an "out-of-the-box" solution to what is an apparent problem.
 

Should the better players then get payed more? This could single the end of college sports as we know it. The losers will be the kids who aren't pro prospects. Minor leagues will become the norm and the lawyers will line their pockets and boost their egos. This isn't about giving all the players a little spending money etc. It's about changing the system totally.
 

Blackhammer said:
Should the better players then get payed more? This could single the end of college sports as we know it. The losers will be the kids who aren't pro prospects. Minor leagues will become the norm and the lawyers will line their pockets and boost their egos. This isn't about giving all the players a little spending money etc. It's about changing the system totally.
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If this is successful, then yes, college sports will change drastically. I said before, and maybe it's too late, but I'll say it again: right or wrong the NCAA needs to get ahead of this. There are ways to keep it in check, and even promote fairness. If lawsuits go too far, and worst case scenario the Supreme Court rules unfavorably against the NCAA, the landscape could be set to make the changes wholly inequitable across college programs. If the NCAA stays in front of it, they may be able to direct the landscape. Middle ground, is the landscape is drastically changed, but the NCAA is still able to effectively mold it. I believe the middle option is the best - if it's not too late.
 

gopherhoopsguy said:
How many free meals a day do the athletes get? Last I check the regular students pay for there own. How about the nice nice free housing? Please stop don't play college sports if you don't like it. Just say no I don't want the free scholarship I will pay my own way.
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A couple of points.

First off, do you realize that even if you are NOT ON SCHOLARSHIP you are still 100% under the NCAA rules and regulations. So, if you say "Screw it - I'll pay my own way", you still could not go get a job as a summer time basketball trainer and keep your eligibility. Pretty extreme in my book.

Second, I am in no way suggesting that the athletes get paid by the schools. Don't like that idea - don't want to open that Pandora's box.

What I am strongly suggesting is that the NCAA allow student athletes to be treated the same as regular students and allow student athletes the ability to earn some income while in school. Some limits, for sure. In my opinion in line with what the typical college student can earn in a part time job.

So if Johnny Football wants to offer clinics at his HS and charge the kids $100 for the week, I have absolutely no problem with that. But the NCAA would...

After all the public service announcements and the NCAA's adoption of the term "student-athlete" (Note - the student is always first!), it's time the NCAA treat the athletes like students and give them the same opportunities to earn income while they are in school.
 

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