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Mulligan

Mulligan

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Being retired, I highly suspect I'm not a typical GopherHole poster in that I assume I'm quite a bit older. However, the typical GopherHole poster is only a small fraction of the many avid, casual, and even potential Gopher fans out there. I'm talking about the people 40 years and older, and I think my views might be fairly typical of a large number of them about what has been in the paper the last two days.

One, enough of the comments that go, "What's the big deal? I've been drunk and done some stupid things. Everybody does it." Uh, you're an anonymous poster on a forum with what you hope is a catchy moniker. You're not a public representative of our university who has a very valuable scholarship and has had a lot of direction, tutoring, and counseling so you can meet your expectations.

Two, while I don't think the Tribune and KFAN are fair, getting upset or whining about it isn't going to change them. Winning and players staying out of trouble will change their coverage. That's the program's responsibility. Despite what they like to project about fair reporting, they are much more interested in getting people to pay attention to them. You can bet if there is more trouble they will be all over it. Hell, I'll bet that the paper had a reporter working hard today to dig up more dirt if they could. Do everything you can to minimize the dirt.

Three, I know you're dealing with 18 to 22 year olds who make mistakes, but the fact that other programs have these types of problems isn't acceptable either. Who cares how many players have been arrested at Florida or Wisconsin? It's a much different culture, and we're a program that has been the football laughingstock of the Big Ten for way too long. We have a lot further to go and the job is hard enough without these things. The most awaited game of the Brewster era is this Saturday, and we have all of this negative stuff.

Four, I've lived through the Ohio State brawl, the Madison, the Clem and Jan, and the Dominic Jones embarrassments as a Gopher fan, and I don't want any more to damage the university. These are no where close, but enough has happened to cause people to question what is happening. Mitch Lee wasn't a total surprise; there were some warning flags before like the infamous champagne glass. Make damn sure that returning to continue a fight with a bouncer or picking up a board to use as a weapon aren't similar warning flags. If you have to be more restrictive in your recruiting or if you have to be more harsh in your punishment, so be it. If you tell me you're all about giving chances or changing lives, I might think you're a hypocrite because you're actually more concerned about losing a running back than a man losing a chance to better himself.

Some of the same people who fume about people not wearing gold, not standing, leaving early, etc. because it hurts the program, are making light or making excuses for behavior that really does hurt the program. I think the vibe is the most positive about the program right now since Lew Holtz before the scrawny phony dumped us for Notre Dame. There are loads of older people out there who are already excited about what is happening, and many more that will get excited if you give them a team they can be proud of. These people are just as important to success as the students in gold who have been great. They're the people down the line who will support, or at least not oppose a raise to keep a successful coach. They've got the bucks to travel to major bowls if they get excited. They're the ones who'll get their grandkids Gopher gear. They're the ones who will contribute to athletic funds. They're the ones who will contact legislators on behalf of the university. That's how a really successful program works; it's built on all that energy of those students.


Am I being overly dramatic? Probably. I assume the situation isn't going to be revealed to be more serious, and I'm hoping there are no more incidents. There's a tremendous opportunity right now, and it bothers me when it's being jeopardized. It's tough here because Brewster and Maturi do have to make judgments about not only football ability, but also character. It's not easy, but that's why they get the bucks.
 

i'm over forty, and I'm calling BS.

The just win mantra is exactly what is wrong with sports. Kids do act out, and it's our duty to guide them to being decent men, not to abandon them when they most need guidance. The whole community has a role, not just the athletic department, everyone, fans and media alike. Pointing fingers, and driving wedges between the players and the community is not in the best interest of the community, the University or the lives of these young men.

A scholarship is not a one way street. Athletes also give up other opportunities to come here. They do this based on promises, one of which is to help them mature into productive adults. It is not solely the job of the coach, the AD, and the University. It's everyone who is a Minnesotan. It's especially true of those who make a living off of the sports in this market and the fans that derive satisfaction from the existance of the sport.

The goal is to develop kids not destroy them. If we determine it cannot be done within the scope of the institution and they become a detriment to the team and university then it's time to cut the ties. Until then we all share in the responsibility to do this. No one is excused. Not you, not me, not Doogie and not Ruesse.
 

Schnoodler said:
i'm over forty, and I'm calling BS.

The just win mantra is exactly what is wrong with sports. Kids do act out, and it's our duty to guide them to being decent men, not to abandon them when they most need guidance. The whole community has a role, not just the athletic department, everyone, fans and media alike. Pointing fingers, and driving wedges between the players and the community is not in the best interest of the community, the University or the lives of these young men.

A scholarship is not a one way street. Athletes also give up other opportunities to come here. They do this based on promises, one of which is to help them mature into productive adults. It is not solely the job of the coach, the AD, and the University. It's everyone who is a Minnesotan. It's especially true of those who make a living off of the sports in this market and the fans that derive satisfaction from the existance of the sport.

The goal is to develop kids not destroy them. If we determine it cannot be done within the scope of the institution and they become a detriment to the team and university then it's time to cut the ties. Until then we all share in the responsibility to do this. No one is excused. Not you, not me, not Doogie and not Ruesse.
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Amen brotha.......
 

I don't condone any illegal behavior, but I'm not so high and mighty that I'm willing to look down on these kids either. You're an adult, you're responsible for your own decisions. Whatever you do is your business, just be aware that consequences do exist.
 

Just a couple of thoughts.

Mulligan - You've got some very well reasoned opinions but points 1,2 and 3 kind of take the fun out of being on a fan forum.

Schnoodler - I couldn't get past your first sentence. You're 40? Blowing my mind here.
 


what can I say. I'm old. but with age comes clarity about what is important and what is not. What is most important is that we all realize the Badgers Suck, mostly because Wisconsin sucks.
 

In the interest of full disclosure I'm 24. But I hope some day to be old and wise like you schnood. But you're teaching us kids important lessons and for that :clap:
 

Mulligan said:
Being retired, I highly suspect I'm not a typical GopherHole poster in that I assume I'm quite a bit older. However, the typical GopherHole poster is only a small fraction of the many avid, casual, and even potential Gopher fans out there. I'm talking about the people 40 years and older, and I think my views might be fairly typical of a large number of them about what has been in the paper the last two days.

One, enough of the comments that go, "What's the big deal? I've been drunk and done some stupid things. Everybody does it." Uh, you're an anonymous poster on a forum with what you hope is a catchy moniker. You're not a public representative of our university who has a very valuable scholarship and has had a lot of direction, tutoring, and counseling so you can meet your expectations.

Two, while I don't think the Tribune and KFAN are fair, getting upset or whining about it isn't going to change them. Winning and players staying out of trouble will change their coverage. That's the program's responsibility. Despite what they like to project about fair reporting, they are much more interested in getting people to pay attention to them. You can bet if there is more trouble they will be all over it. Hell, I'll bet that the paper had a reporter working hard today to dig up more dirt if they could. Do everything you can to minimize the dirt.

Three, I know you're dealing with 18 to 22 year olds who make mistakes, but the fact that other programs have these types of problems isn't acceptable either. Who cares how many players have been arrested at Florida or Wisconsin? It's a much different culture, and we're a program that has been the football laughingstock of the Big Ten for way too long. We have a lot further to go and the job is hard enough without these things. The most awaited game of the Brewster era is this Saturday, and we have all of this negative stuff.

Four, I've lived through the Ohio State brawl, the Madison, the Clem and Jan, and the Dominic Jones embarrassments as a Gopher fan, and I don't want any more to damage the university. These are no where close, but enough has happened to cause people to question what is happening. Mitch Lee wasn't a total surprise; there were some warning flags before like the infamous champagne glass. Make damn sure that returning to continue a fight with a bouncer or picking up a board to use as a weapon aren't similar warning flags. If you have to be more restrictive in your recruiting or if you have to be more harsh in your punishment, so be it. If you tell me you're all about giving chances or changing lives, I might think you're a hypocrite because you're actually more concerned about losing a running back than a man losing a chance to better himself.

Some of the same people who fume about people not wearing gold, not standing, leaving early, etc. because it hurts the program, are making light or making excuses for behavior that really does hurt the program. I think the vibe is the most positive about the program right now since Lew Holtz before the scrawny phony dumped us for Notre Dame. There are loads of older people out there who are already excited about what is happening, and many more that will get excited if you give them a team they can be proud of. These people are just as important to success as the students in gold who have been great. They're the people down the line who will support, or at least not oppose a raise to keep a successful coach. They've got the bucks to travel to major bowls if they get excited. They're the ones who'll get their grandkids Gopher gear. They're the ones who will contribute to athletic funds. They're the ones who will contact legislators on behalf of the university. That's how a really successful program works; it's built on all that energy of those students.


Am I being overly dramatic? Probably. I assume the situation isn't going to be revealed to be more serious, and I'm hoping there are no more incidents. There's a tremendous opportunity right now, and it bothers me when it's being jeopardized. It's tough here because Brewster and Maturi do have to make judgments about not only football ability, but also character. It's not easy, but that's why they get the bucks.
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the highlighted sentence reminds me of oklahoma state football coach mike gundy a couple years ago when he was chewing out that idiot reporter (reusse esque type of writer) who had written a hit piece about one of his quarterbacks in the local paper.

mike gundy screams at the reporter in question: "i'm a man, i'm 40!"
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
the highlighted sentence reminds me of oklahoma state football coach mike gundy a couple years ago when he was chewing out that idiot reporter (reusse esque type of writer) who had written a hit piece about one of his quarterbacks in the local paper.

mike gundy screams at the reporter in question: "i'm a man, i'm 40!"
Click to expand...

And what reference to Mike Gundy would not be complete without video evidence!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjF93E4LjlA

Love it.
 



What can I say? Between having breakfast, working with a group at church, and a couple of casual conversations (one with a former Gopher football player) I listened to about 20 people in the last two days. There are questions out in the public about what's going on. Most of these guys grew up listening to Ray announce Gopher games. It may be BS, it may be unfair, but that's how many people feel. Maybe a little more contact with the rest of Minnesota about Gopher football instead of just on GopherHole?

However, Schnoodler, I appreciate your reasoned response. I agree with it, just obviously not to the degree you do.
 

Mulligan said:
Three, I know you're dealing with 18 to 22 year olds who make mistakes, but the fact that other programs have these types of problems isn't acceptable either. Who cares how many players have been arrested at Florida or Wisconsin? It's a much different culture, and we're a program that has been the football laughingstock of the Big Ten for way too long. We have a lot further to go and the job is hard enough without these things. The most awaited game of the Brewster era is this Saturday, and we have all of this negative stuff.
Click to expand...
I think you have a lot of very valid points, but I want to address this one here. I'm not saying I completely disagree with you as far as this being acceptable because it isn't. However, your point illustrates just how common it is for young men to make mistakes. If it's happening everywhere, don't you think the problem is the culture of being a Division I athlete as opposed to being strictly a Minnesota problem? I think we need to evaluate how the coaches and athletic department deals with the problems as they arise.

Mitch Lee and his accomplices were kicked out of school. Jim Dutcher was eventually fired.

Clem Haskins and McKinnely Boston were eventually fired, the players in question with remaining eligibility were kicked off the team. Policies were changed and the whole tutoring system has been revamped. While this may have been the biggest black eye in our school's history, I really believe positive changes resulted from it.

The cell phone video sexual assault players were kicked off the team.

I am too young to remember the fallout from the Ohio State brawl in the early '70's (I'm over 40 myself), so I don't know what the fallout was. IIRC, there were some suspensions though.

I really don't know how much better all of these incidents could have been dealt with. While it's unfortunate they occurred, how much blame can pointed at the institution for the fact that they happened? I choose to focus on how the institution handled it when discovered.

I think it's a risky recipe when you combine hundreds of high caliber athletes that have been treated differently most of their short lives simply because they can run a 4.4 forty, dunk a basketball guarded by 3 men, throw a football 60 yards on the run, or have a 100 mph slap shot. These young men feel invincible. Many have probably had run ins in their high school years but people looked the other way because they won on the field, court, or rink. They've almost been trained to believe they're different and special and will be treated as such in college too.

I'm not making excuses because they have to be accountable even if they are immature, naive, and sometimes a little stupid. These kids need to grow up. I'll tell you what, I would rather have these kids in school with a scholarship on the line to motivate them to be better citizens than out on the street being influenced by bad elements. How many of these young men would be in prison or dead if their football, basketball, or hockey scholarship didn't get them into school? Whose innocent life would be altered then?

I'm embarrassed about these recent incidents just like I was embarrassed by the previous ones. I just don't know what can be done to eliminate them. That being said, I'm pretty satisfied with how they've been dealt with once they came to light. I think that's all we can focus on.
 

I don't care about this issue, either way as much as has been displayed by the multitude of posts on multiple threads on these "naughty drinking/fighting football player threads." On one hand it isn't good and I'd of course rather have the players not acting like idiots. On the other hand, this stuff pops up at ALL levels but the media machines only care about the big DI programs to "expose" the stories. Take it for what it is worth. I mentioned this in another thread but I personally have seen several police blotter worthy situations with DIII football teams that of course never made the papers. The situations were pretty similar but that news wouldn't sell papers or gain web hits because far less people care. Drunk college kids, including football players tend to make dumb choices. It doesn't make it right and they should be held personally accountable. But, forgive me if I don't demand that heads should roll. And, also forgive me if I pass on posting barbs the next time an Iowa player gets caught drunk driving a moped.

Oh... and I'm guessing I am probably older than most of the people posting on GH. Just guessing.
 

I think everyone here is grateful to the older generation for their loyalty to the university and the gopher sports programs. That said, I'm 26, I remember doing stupid things, it wasn't that long ago for me. I was a D3 athlete, much like the Augsburg athletes that have been somehow left out of the equation in this fight(I would be suprised if any of them were suspended,even though they represent their university also).
Young guys age 18-21 are notorious for doing stupid things, fighting, getting out of control, my grandfather has told stories of his antics in the 40's vandalism, drinking, fights. It doesn't make it ok, the kids that represent this university need to remember that they have a target on their backs, and so they were suspended and I'm sure will feel the wrath of Brewster and his coaches(teamwide gassers until puking anyone?). End of story. 2-3 incidents don't make a epidemic, Iowa has an epidemic with their 20something arrests/incidents. If it ever gets like that here, even half that, then it's time to start calling for heads to roll.
 




I tend to agree with Mulligan, though there are many shades of gray in this discussion. Kids do make mistakes and that doesn't mean they're bad people or should be tossed. But sometimes it's too far and their actions indicate that they're not the kind of people you want representing your school or team. There's a line in there somewhere, and it is different for everybody.

If a player is cited for underage drinking, for example, it may have to be dealt with, but that's pretty minor for a college student. If someone is charged with rape, most would say that player needs to leave. Everything in between would cause a great deal of debate.

Personally, I would show Whaley the door. I'm sure there are some who agree and many who don't. Tinsley might be close, but for me there's not enough information to even know what happened last weekend.
 

Just wanted to point one thing out. While it is never ok for kids to have run ins with the law and they should ALWAYS be held responsible for their actions, I think we forget how great a job most guys are doing. I went to school at DePaul, right in the middle of Chicago and somewhat similar to the U in that it's a city environment. Most of my friends were good people and did well in school but still a bunch of them ran into the police, campus or city at some point after some type of drunken exploit. Now I'm not saying they all were arrested or charged or anything but they got into some type of trouble. Fights happen all the time in college and college kids do dumb things. When you have these athletes who as someone said above me, have been treated special and are muscled up to boot, its commendable that there haven't been more incidents. Athletes get free stuff given to them, have girls throw themselves at them, have the boyfriends or wanna be boyfriends of said girls hating on them, and have people focusing on them everywhere they go. The fact that we've only had 2 incidents in the last year is actually a testament to how well the other 83 scholarship players have carried themselves.
 

I agree Oleboy41. I remember walking around campus pissing where I wanted, puking if I needed to, and stumbling from place to place. Outside of the 4-5 people with me, no one knew who I was and cared one bit. Drunk people do stupid things all the time on a college campus. Athletes know that if they get caught it will be in the paper the next day. Risk they take and except when they sign on the dotted line.
 

Mulligan,

You have made two very valid points. One, I am also tired of the 'Holers around here making excuses and saying "No Big Deal," and "Everyone does it." Fact is, no they don't. The one to blame here is Whaley, not the cops, not where he grew up, etc. Whaley had numerous opportunities to walk away and instead he chose to escalate the situation EVERY time. He tries to get into a bar underage. Fine. Many of us probably did that. But when he gets denied, he punches the bouncer?! How many people here chose that option? Strike one.
Police arrive on the scene, bouncer gives Whaley a break by not pressing charges and Whaley is told to leave. But does he leave?? No, he escalates it again by confronting the bouncer. Strike Two.

Police then try to get him out of the area and how does he respond? With force. Strike Three. Does he stop resisting after Tase # 1? No. Tase # 2? No.

There were multiple opportunities that night for Whaley to walk away. But he chose the wrong option, EVERY time. Which shows he learned nothing from his episode at a nightclub earlier that year in Virginia Beach. And it shows he didn't learn anything with his recent mixup at another nightclub. Three nightclub mishaps in 18 months? No, that does not happen to everyone and it IS a big deal.

Second, your point is well taken that the 100 rabid fans at GopherHole DO NOT speak for the entire fan base. Brewster could turn this program into USC or he could turn it into a 1980's SMU and most Gopherholers would still be die-hard fans and support the team to the core. But Maturi knows he needs a lot more people than 100 random bloggers to support the program.

Thanks for your post.


Schnauser,

I can't believe you brought up DIII students. Quick, who is the QB for Gustavus? RB for Macalester? K for Grinnell? No one knows because no one cares. When you are on the bigger stage, the bigger the spotlight. If you want the glory for being on the big stage, then you also accept the responsibility for being on the big stage as well.
 

I don't believe I did bring up DIII students. But I did mention that the Badgers suck.
 

[/QUOTE]
I can't believe you brought up DIII students. Quick, who is the QB for Gustavus? RB for Macalester? K for Grinnell? No one knows because no one cares. When you are on the bigger stage, the bigger the spotlight. If you want the glory for being on the big stage, then you also accept the responsibility for being on the big stage as well.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but it still makes an effective point that kids and athletes do freaking stupid things.
The fact that Reusse called the Augsburg coach and he had no idea about any of it, brings those D3 players into the spotlight as well, all parties involved were stupid idiots but only the few U players will be punished, again as they should be and as they have been. You think Whaley or the coaches wanted to take a him to RS last year? He was obviously suspended for the season. It just wasn't reported.
 

Back in the "good old days", there were plenty of incidents with college athletes. They tended to be hushed up, the media was a lot less inclined to do an expose of the local team.

Problems should neither be underestimated nor overestimated.
 

Schnoodler said:
I don't believe I did bring up DIII students. But I did mention that the Badgers suck.
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Sorry about that. I mixed up Gopherholers. But I do agree on your statement in regards to the Badgers.
 

Hey Mully,

I saw my first Gopher game when Wes Fesler was coach and I remember Bernie Bierman doing color on the radio broadcasts, back when there were at least 5 stations covering the games. So I'm old, too, but you come across as a fuddy duddy to me. Hey, people makes mistakes. Priests make mistakes. Presidents make mistakes (big ones). Letterman makes mistakes. Millionaires make mistakes. Grizzled pros make mistakes. Nothing has been proven regarding Kirksey and the board, so cool it about that until the courts have sorted it out (if there is anything). Mitch Lee wasn't convicted, I seem to remember. I'm not condoning poor behavior. But I will condone your attitude that these kids need to be sunday school teachers. They are young college kids with a lot of testosterone and they will make mistakes. But this 2009 group of Gophers has been pretty solid, by and large.
 

Ole, Whaley redshirted because he was shot in the leg, not because of an incident that happened in NOVEMBER.
 

I remember our last national champions and one of the Gopher greats (won't name him cuz I can't remember which one) was questioned about a paper he had submitted and he said, "Judge wrote it for me." (Judge Dickson was a fine Gopher who later became a lawyer, I believe). Also, there were rumors in those days that the great Gopher stars were driving awfully fine convertibles around campus.
 

skiumah2 said:
I am too young to remember the fallout from the Ohio State brawl in the early '70's (I'm over 40 myself), so I don't know what the fallout was. IIRC, there were some suspensions though.
Click to expand...

I'll continue on a trip down memory lane since it does seem to bug a couple of people. Behagen and Taylor were suspended for the rest of the year; Dave Winfield would have been if he had ever caught the Ohio State player he was chasing. Just to show that damn near everyone does mature eventually, I was cheering wildly for Winfield to catch him. The team amazingly went on to win the Big Ten championship even though the whole league was after the Gophers, but I think we lost right away in the NCAA Tournament.

The next year the team had pretty much everyone back including the suspended players, and people were really expecting great things. It was a fun year, but I believe it was Indiana that beat the Gophers out for the title. I know they beat us in a big game and Knight was pretty smug about it. I know we were second in the league. So, ironically, the biggest scandal on a national level probably had the least effect record wise.

A couple of tumultuous years after that, and the NCAA finally caught up to Musselman, and it was for well over 100 violations. Geez, I just hijacked my own thread.

One more good old days memory. A friend of mine was beaten up by a very prominent Gopher running back then because the running back had a thing against hippies, and my friend happened to have long hair. This was sort of recreation for the running back according to campus rumor, but he never made the paper.
 

There is more to this, than has been reported

And, I have only two words for the team. Brandon Hall.
 

Wow, what to say about this thread. I'm seventy, and I can tell you there ain't anything new under the sun. The question is how to handle it. I believe the Gophers need to take a firm stand against thuggery and other foolishness for the simple reason that the press in this town is out to get them and will consistantly use these incidents to fill their columns and broadcasts as a way to trash and diminish the Gopher program throughout. In a lot of communities people like Reusse, if he wrote in said community, would end up face down in some sewer if he trashed their program like he does ours. I don't know much about the incidences that have happened and must assume that the actions taken by Brewster were appropriate. If these guys can't clean up their acts they need to be dealt with harshly by being dismissed from the team. A little story. Many, many years ago when I got my driver's license (at the age of fifteen) I was about to head to the family car for my first night out as a full fledged driver. My dad pulled me aside and said, "Son, this ain't baseball. You don't get three strikes. You mess up one time with my car and you'll never drive it again." That type of parental action was not unusual in the fifties. We could use some more of it now.
 

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