Am I overreacting on these sats?

Rog

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Last year in my opinion we won a number of games because of turnovers.

Last year our young players created too many penalties that cost us dearly at times.

This year what will happen in these two situations? One negative and the other OK.

This said, I'm concerned that turnovers made last year look better than it would have.

Will we need that turn over margin stat this year to have a decent year?
 

youre looking at the turnovers in the completely wrong way. Good teams force turnovers. We got turnovers because we were playing well. Turnovers dont just magically happen. Yes we won because of turnovers, but we got the turnovers because we were playing well enough to win.
 

Good teams force turnovers.

What about that 6-7 Gophers team from 2006 that was sixth in the nation in turnovers gained? That wasn't a very good team.

We got turnovers because we were playing well. Turnovers dont just magically happen. Yes we won because of turnovers, but we got the turnovers because we were playing well enough to win.

Turnovers happen because the offense makes a mistake. Statistically, they occur too randomly to attribute to a defense. The only time you can say that a defense "forced" a turnover is on a strip, and even then a defense is dependent on the luck of the bounce to recover the football.
 

Where we want to do well is in turnover MARGIN. That means our offense isn't making mistakes and our defense is capitalizing on the mistakes of the other teams. Ask any football coach and he'll tell you that is the statistic that most often determines who wins and loses games.

I suspect penalties will be down this year. The offense should be easier to run nearly penalty-free than the spread and the D will just need to use its veteran experience to not make costly penalties (late hits, etc).
 

I think it's a mixture. Better teams tend to force more turnovers. Worse teams tend to not force as many. Just as the Gophers forced a lot in '06 yet lost our first five Big Ten games, I'm sure there are teams in the top 25 that are in the bottom 10% of turnovers forced.

Even without the turnovers, our defense did improve a lot last year, but they definitely still have a long way to go. Statistically didn't we only finish about 80th in the nation in defense? Not very good, but still 40 spots higher than in '07. I would be pretty happy with a 20-30 point jump again this year.
 


Turnovers happen because the offense makes a mistake. Statistically, they occur too randomly to attribute to a defense. The only time you can say that a defense "forced" a turnover is on a strip, and even then a defense is dependent on the luck of the bounce to recover the football.

So you're telling me that intercepting a pass isn't forcing a turnover? What if the DE got pressure on the QB? What if he hit the QB while throwing it?--Was Collado's interception of Juice Williams after Van De Steeg hit him while throwing the ball a forced turnover?


Yes, I agree unforced errors like a fumbled snap occur and they are equally likely to occur to all teams.

There is some degree of luck involved in turnovers but you also make your own luck by how you play defense. The general recipe for causing turnovers is pressure on the QB and a hard hitting defense that attempts to strip the ball. While it may be lucky to have a ball bounce your way, a team increases its chance of recovering fumbles by having players swarm to the football. Talented DB's and pressure from the front 7--especially if the front 4 can get pressure allowing the LB's to drop in to coverage--is how you create turnovers when a team is passing the ball. The interceptions happen because a QB has less time to make a decision thereby increasing the probability he makes a mistake in his read.
 

I my mind, the issue is what an offense does with the turnovers that are created. For example, we could lead the nation in turnovers and turnover margin. But even if our offense isn't turning the ball over (thus the high turnover margin) that does not mean they're doing anything positive with the ball or putting points on the board. If we have a game where we force 5 takeaways but only get 3 points out of them then that is certainly a game we can lose.
 


"they occur too randomly to attribute to a defense"

Wrong, a good defense forces turnovers by being where the ball is and forcing mistakes by the offense. Having hands in the defensive backfield is crucial to getting a high turnover percentage.
 



Penalties and rookie mistakes led to the losses against Northwestern and Wisconsin.
 

So you're telling me that intercepting a pass isn't forcing a turnover?

I'm saying that an interception is ultimately dependent upon the quarterback making a poor decision.

What if he hit the QB while throwing it?--Was Collado's interception of Juice Williams after Van De Steeg hit him while throwing the ball a forced turnover?

Is getting-to-the-quarterback-right-as-he-is-throwing-the-ball a skill? Can it be replicated? A quarter of a second sooner and Van De Steeg might have a sack. A quarter of a second later and Williams might have gotten rid of the ball before taking a hit. The randomness in this scenario is the timing. Did WVD deliberately time his hit on Juice?

There is some degree of luck involved in turnovers but you also make your own luck by how you play defense. The general recipe for causing turnovers is pressure on the QB and a hard hitting defense that attempts to strip the ball.

Not necessarily. As I mentioned before, the '06 Gophers had an AWFUL defense and managed to finish sixth in the nation in turnovers gained. What was their recipe? How many fumbles are actually the result of a defender deliberately trying to strip the ball?

Talented DB's and pressure from the front 7--especially if the front 4 can get pressure allowing the LB's to drop in to coverage--is how you create turnovers when a team is passing the ball. The interceptions happen because a QB has less time to make a decision thereby increasing the probability he makes a mistake in his read.

But how much does it increase the probability? Significantly? Moderately? Marginally?

Teams that finish +10 in turnover margin do worse the following year 65% of the time, while teams the finish -10 in turnover margin do better the following year 68% of the time (source: Phil Steele). That screams randomness.

Why is it that fans always attribute an interception thrown by their team's quarterback or a fumble by their running back as a mistake made by their offense, yet seemingly every time the opposing team turns it over it's a great play by the defense? How does that make sense?
 

Wrong, a good defense forces turnovers by being where the ball is and forcing mistakes by the offense. Having hands in the defensive backfield is crucial to getting a high turnover percentage.

Look at Rice this year. They finished tied for 11th in the nation in turnovers gained, yet their defense finished 111th in total yards. How can a defense have players around the ball so much yet give up so many yards?
 

Is getting-to-the-quarterback-right-as-he-is-throwing-the-ball a skill? Can it be replicated? A quarter of a second sooner and Van De Steeg might have a sack. A quarter of a second later and Williams might have gotten rid of the ball before taking a hit. The randomness in this scenario is the timing. Did WVD deliberately time his hit on Juice?

The actual timing of when he hit the quarterback may indeed be lucky but the ability to apply pressure is a skill.

The way I view it, we can make a base assume for NCAA teams that QB pressure creates a turnover 5% of the time on average (the % is for illustrative purposes, it doesn't matter if it's accurate). The way you seem to be looking at it is that if a team is an anomoly their pressure results in a turnver 10% of the time resulting in a more turnovers and that can't be replicated. I'm viewing it as a team that gets twice as much pressure on the QB is twice as likely to create a turnover. So my point is, while the act of getting a turnover may have some degree of luck involved in it the actions that lead to the turnover (QB pressure) can predict teams that create more turnovers.

If you want an example of a team in the NFL that creates pressure and is consistently in the top one third of the league in turnovers look no further than the Baltimore Ravens.

Not necessarily. As I mentioned before, the '06 Gophers had an AWFUL defense and managed to finish sixth in the nation in turnovers gained. What was their recipe?

A defense can still be bad at tackling and give up a lot of yards but if you have a rush DE that can pressure the QB you are more likely to create more turnovers than a defense that causes no pressure. Van De Steeg had 10 sacks in 2006. I can't recall fumbles vs. int's in 2006 so I can't even speak to specifc examples.

How many fumbles are actually the result of a defender deliberately trying to strip the ball?

I couldn't give you a specific % but off the top of my head I can think of plenty of examples: Sherels strip of the Purdue WR, Van De Steeg's sack of Juice that Simoni picked up for the TD, the strip of PJ Hill from behind against Wiscy. Other fumbles weren't the result of a direct strip but rather a perfect form tackle delivered very hard--yes this is luck but teams/players that tackle at the ankles don't cause these fumbles--Brock's hit on Kory Sheets against Purdue, whoever the DB was that crushed the WR from Wiscy and gave him a concussion, and a few of those hits on BG players.

The point is that there are techniques that when taugt to players increases the % of causing a turnover. For instance, for a DE rushing from behind on a QB you want to strip down with your right arm to try to knock the ball loose. When chasing a ball carrier from behind the ball is vulnerable to either an upper cut punch between the rib cage and elbow or a swipe down from the top. Also, if you have ball hawking defensive players they see if the ball carrier lets the ball get away from his body (see Ralph Spry) and they make a play on the ball while tackling. Players are taught these techniques and some coaches just teach it better than others which can affect the fumble per tackle ratio.

Teams that finish +10 in turnover margin do worse the following year 65% of the time, while teams the finish -10 in turnover margin do better the following year 68% of the time (source: Phil Steele). That screams randomness.

That stat doesn't give much in the way of specifics for how much better/worse the team does so it doesn't really tell you that much. Do they go from +15 to +13? If so, that doesn't seem that random. Do they go from +15 to -5, that says it is either random or there are differences in the make up of the team (Sr QB graduates, freshman QB takes over--like Minnesota in 06 to 07). It sounds like +10 or -10 turnover margin is approximately 1 standard deviation away from the mean and to move further away from that is less common than to move back toward that. Not exactly random.

Why is it that fans always attribute an interception thrown by their team's quarterback or a fumble by their running back as a mistake made by their offense, yet seemingly every time the opposing team turns it over it's a great play by the defense? How does that make sense?

They aren't mutually exclusive events. The defense is is trying to increase the likelihood that an offensive player makes a mistake but the offensive player still has to make a mistake for a turnover to occur. When the turnover occurs it is both a good play by the defense to cause it and a mistake by the offensive player to turn the ball over. Situations like Jamal Harris dropping the ball with nobody within 10 yards of him are rare and I doubt Purdue fans would claim that was a good play by Purdue.
 



Plinnius-Aside from what I just wrote I thought I would add this.

Some turnovers are lucky for the defense because they come from unforced errors and some are caused by actions of the defense. For instance, if we go back to the Wisconsin game and look at the turnovers from Minnesota.

In the first quarter Minnesota fumbled a hand off from Weber to DeLeon Eskridge. There was no defensive player in the backfield so I would consider it completely random.

In the fourth quarter Minnesota fumbled a pitch from Weber to Shady Salamon. There was no defensive player that was there to create the turnover. It was just an offensive player not paying enough attention to the pitch while looking for his running lane. I would consider it completely random.

On a kick off Troy Stoudermire fumbled the ball in to the end zone resulting in a safety. The fumble was caused by a very hard hit on Stoudermire with a helmet hitting the ball jarring it loose. There is a degree of randomness in this event because fumbles probably occur less than 5% of the time when a player makes a tackle in the vicinity of the waist of a ball carrier However, the tackler could have gone at the Stoudermire's ankles which would have resuled in a much lower probability of a fumble. This is a situation where Wisconsin made their own luck by applying a form tackle on the ball carrier.

The last turnover (at least in my memory) was an interception of Weber on a 4th down. It occured on a ball that Weber probably wouldn't have thrown on 2nd down but he had to force on 4th down. Wisconsin applied pressure which made him react quicker and he didn't have all of his receivers coming out of their breaks yet. With a lack of options available Weber tried to hit his hot route--which was well covered--and Wisconsin intercepted the pass. This is another example of the defense making their own luck by forcing the QB to make a decision that he didn't want to make and without pressure he wouldn't have made.

So of the 4 turnovers 2 were completely random and 2 had a degree of luck involved but were created by the defense exhibiting behaviors (form tackle, QB pressure) that results in turnovers a higher percentage of the time than other behaviors (ankle tackle, not applying QB pressure).
 

What Gopher unexplicably dropped the ball as he was running into the end zone? Was that last year or two years ago? That was the biggest WTF unforced turnover I have ever seen.
 

What Gopher unexplicably dropped the ball as he was running into the end zone? Was that last year or two years ago? That was the biggest WTF unforced turnover I have ever seen.

That was the Jamal Harris fumble that I referenced at the end of my one post. It was a little long so I don't blame anyone for not reading it.
 

I think that recieving turnovers is a mixed bag of luck and making your own luck.

However, what the real sign of a good football team is the amount of turnovers given away. Turning the ball over is hardly ever 'bad luck'. 98% of offensive turnovers, somebody messed up.

You can take the ball away three times a game and still lose. But if you give up less than one turnover per game in a season, you will look like an outrageously better football team.

Sure, you might win the occasional game because you forced 5 turnovers in the game, but that is just one game. Protecting the ball is different. It's basically the 'defense wins championships' argument. Only instead of protecting the endzone, you're protecting the ball.
 

Teams that finish +10 in turnover margin do worse the following year 65% of the time, while teams the finish -10 in turnover margin do better the following year 68% of the time (source: Phil Steele). That screams randomness.

No, it doesn't. Here's why. It does show that teams that have done very well at getting turnovers are more likely to not do that well, and teams that have done poorly at it are likely to do better.

That's not random at all. For the teams that are good at getting turnovers, there's not a huge room for improvement - it's simply more likely that they will not be able to be as good the next year. And similarly, a team that did poorly is only likley to improve the margin, as they can't get a lot worse.

If a runner breaks a world record, it's more likely that that runner will be slower the next time than faster.
 

No, it doesn't. Here's why. It does show that teams that have done very well at getting turnovers are more likely to not do that well, and teams that have done poorly at it are likely to do better.

That's not random at all. For the teams that are good at getting turnovers, there's not a huge room for improvement - it's simply more likely that they will not be able to be as good the next year. And similarly, a team that did poorly is only likley to improve the margin, as they can't get a lot worse.

If a runner breaks a world record, it's more likely that that runner will be slower the next time than faster.


good call. there's also the possibility that with graduations the teams that were good were more senior laden, thus more adept and skilled, and the following year they were not. It is college ball, there is an ebb and flow to the talent. You would expect some pendulum movement.
 

The Big Ten was as bad as I have seen it in 2008. Just having Michigan be as bad as Michigan was took the level of the conference down to a very low level. Can the Big Ten be as bad as it was in 2008 again in 2009? Purdue, an inconsistant Illinois? A wimpy wisky? A Minnesota that totally laid down and gave up for the final four conference games in 2008 and even a bowl game? A game, but not good NU team that at times was surprisning other teams because the league was so down? An Indiana team that has no hope and not even any hype? A Michigan team that MIGHT make a lowly bowl game in 2008 after failing to make a bowl game in 2008?

Teams may have graduated some good players in 2008, but the conference was so down in 2008 that one must ask if the underclassmen who will replace graduated seniors will be capable of even replacing their graduated teammates. Will the big ten move from very low to even lower in 2009? Or, will there be any upward momentum? It's too bad that brewster doesn't have the same Big Ten schedule in 2009 that he had in 2007 and 2008. The ooc schedule? I never get too excited about ooc games. If the schedule is too easy, what possible fun is it? If the schedule is too tough what possible fun is it? I like wins. I hate losses. Easy wins will fuel the hype for a while. Just look at the Gopher's 2008 schedule and season. Playing good teams very close is something some Gopher Fans HATE! Losing BIG TIME to good teams is something some Gopher Fans HATE! One thing for sure though: if a coach doesn't win enough big Ten games, all will not end well for that coach. It is just a matter of when the end no longer justifies the employment of that coach. Let the contract expire and not renew or renew and then buy the contract out: that is the question...

It is always a good idea to replace the AD every other coach though! ; 0 )
 

A defense can still be bad at tackling and give up a lot of yards but if you have a rush DE that can pressure the QB you are more likely to create more turnovers than a defense that causes no pressure. Van De Steeg had 10 sacks in 2006. I can't recall fumbles vs. int's in 2006 so I can't even speak to specifc examples.

15 fumbles recovered (14th nationally) and 17 interceptions (15th). Van De Steeg had 10 sacks, but 4 came against MSU. That team finished 72nd in sacks, 106th TFL, and 117th in pass defense.

It sounds like +10 or -10 turnover margin is approximately 1 standard deviation away from the mean and to move further away from that is less common than to move back toward that. Not exactly random.

No, regression toward the mean isn't random, but that's sort of my point. When the Gophers were 7-1, their TO margin was +15. After the Illinois game, I remarked that the Gophers couldn't keep relying on turnovers to win them games as they are largely subject to luck/randomness; a regression toward the mean was expected. Sure enough, that's what happened. The team finished 0-5 with at TO margin of -3.


Anyway, I think this and this proves my point.
 

15 fumbles recovered (14th nationally) and 17 interceptions (15th). Van De Steeg had 10 sacks, but 4 came against MSU. That team finished 72nd in sacks, 106th TFL, and 117th in pass defense.



No, regression toward the mean isn't random, but that's sort of my point. When the Gophers were 7-1, their TO margin was +15. After the Illinois game, I remarked that the Gophers couldn't keep relying on turnovers to win them games as they are largely subject to luck/randomness; a regression toward the mean was expected. Sure enough, that's what happened. The team finished 0-5 with at TO margin of -3.


Anyway, I think this and this proves my point.

Noise in the data does not prove randomness. Noise just makes it impossible to prove that a pattern exists.

I suspect you played offense. I have learned that most people primarily watch football from the perspective of the offense. Afterall, how many people enjoy watching a 0-0 game.
 




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