A question Coyle/the new coach must answer

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EG#9

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How do we get players?

Two potential Gopher candidates matched up recently when VCU defeated Colorado State. Both Ryan Odom and Niko Medved have teams that are very Senior heavy in terms of production. Odom has a shot at making the NCAA's, while Medved appears to have a team that will finish middle of the pack at best in the Mountain West.

For the sake of argument lets say either guy gets an NIL budget around 30th in the country. Neither guy has much at all to bring with him from his former school. Neither guy has recruited high major kids since 2010 (Odom at Virginia Tech). Neither guy has the type of name recognition or buzz that will get kids interested on their own like a current or former power 5 coach or NBA coach would. They will be recruiting to a place that has been completely irrelevant for a long time and won't sell itself. How do they get a kid to take the same $700,000 they could get at NC State or Baylor and instead come to Minnesota? If the answer is giving the kid $850,000 then that hypothetical 30th NIL budget will not go nearly as far as it should.

I don't think this can be some sort of slow rebuild in our current situation. We can't have more Ben Johnson type years where the team is a complete non-factor and the Barn is empty. Visits for high school kids will be absolutely dead in that scenario and whatever short term NIL was raised (and Coyle better be raising now) won't be renewing if there isn't clear positive change. The new coach and Coyle will have to work together to put together a competitive roster and the outline of that plan needs to be in place before a hire is made.

I think we have to target someone who either has a significant player or players he can bring with him (ex Devries last offseason) or someone with the name recognition to interest players (and likely fans too). My dream candidate is a sitting head coach who is unhappy at his current school. That could be a Big East or Big 12 coach who sees the writing on the wall in terms of where revenue sharing will take things or possibly an SEC coach who is unhappy with his schools focus on football. We will likely never know if someone like that is out there unless/until news breaks that they are in negotiations to leave.
 

If revenue sharing becomes a reality a middling lower tier Big Ten school like Minnesota is going to have more money and resources than the same type of program in the ACC like NC State. The Big Ten contracts are just bigger than any other conference and will have more to pay players with. Sure Minnesota has less NIL but it will be a great leveler as far as paying players go. Within the conference it is still going to be an uphill battle because the haves are going to have more to work with.

It is critical in my mind to get it right at this moment in time. No reason Minnesota or any Big Ten school is a feeder program with revenue sharing.
 

i just cant get Will Wades name out of my head when thinking of a guy that can bring what we are looking for.....name recognition, proven winner, and there is no such thing as cheating anymore....

Bucky McMillan-proven winner at a lower level is another guy that i think would bring some excitement with him....and a guy that continues to churn out wins
 

EG#9 said:
How do we get players?

Neither guy has much at all to bring with him from his former school.
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I have no idea why, but I was thinking about this very thing this morning on my way to work. I think because I was thinking about Indiana football and how good they became because of this.
 

The counter-point is this; hasn't Coyle already articulated that of the ~$22M in total revenue to be shared amongst the teams, basketball will get about $2-4M (I thought he mentioned that). If that is the case, we'll still will be fighting the SEC, Big East, & ACC schools that have large donor bases + strong NIL collectives with our not that significant "revenue sharing war chest" + pretty weak NIL collective.

College sports top donors: Ranking the most generous athletics boosters
*surprising that the Gophers come in at #48 w/ $199M in cumulative "donations and contributions" from 2005-2022 season (probably due to the push for funds for Huntington Bank Stadium, new basketball practice facility and other upgrades).

Thus, we won't be able to just leverage the money...you need a coach with cache / buzz to create excitement with the fans, but also mainly with the portal players and HS talent.

If Kevin McHale wasn't so old, he should be a target. His coaching career was solid, his GM career was not...but knowing Glen Taylor...how much of that can be put on McHale.

1734532673055.png
 


EG#9 said:
How do we get players?

Two potential Gopher candidates matched up recently when VCU defeated Colorado State. Both Ryan Odom and Niko Medved have teams that are very Senior heavy in terms of production. Odom has a shot at making the NCAA's, while Medved appears to have a team that will finish middle of the pack at best in the Mountain West.

For the sake of argument lets say either guy gets an NIL budget around 30th in the country. Neither guy has much at all to bring with him from his former school. Neither guy has recruited high major kids since 2010 (Odom at Virginia Tech). Neither guy has the type of name recognition or buzz that will get kids interested on their own like a current or former power 5 coach or NBA coach would. They will be recruiting to a place that has been completely irrelevant for a long time and won't sell itself. How do they get a kid to take the same $700,000 they could get at NC State or Baylor and instead come to Minnesota? If the answer is giving the kid $850,000 then that hypothetical 30th NIL budget will not go nearly as far as it should.

I don't think this can be some sort of slow rebuild in our current situation. We can't have more Ben Johnson type years where the team is a complete non-factor and the Barn is empty. Visits for high school kids will be absolutely dead in that scenario and whatever short term NIL was raised (and Coyle better be raising now) won't be renewing if there isn't clear positive change. The new coach and Coyle will have to work together to put together a competitive roster and the outline of that plan needs to be in place before a hire is made.

I think we have to target someone who either has a significant player or players he can bring with him (ex Devries last offseason) or someone with the name recognition to interest players (and likely fans too). My dream candidate is a sitting head coach who is unhappy at his current school. That could be a Big East or Big 12 coach who sees the writing on the wall in terms of where revenue sharing will take things or possibly an SEC coach who is unhappy with his schools focus on football. We will likely never know if someone like that is out there unless/until news breaks that they are in negotiations to leave.
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Can't speak for Odom, but Niko has turned around multiple programs. His Furman teams got better every year, the Mountain West has had years where it was better then the ACC and the now defunct Pac 12 during his CSU tenure. Won 25 games twice, 20 four times. Has had Multiple NCAA at large bids, made an NIT title game run. Has had a winning conference record at all three stops got Drake back on a good run for Devires after the disaster that was Ray Garretti. Niko is no Will Wade but I think he would be a safe and competent choice, not my first but I would trust him to make us respectable and maybe Thordon would stick around
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
The counter-point is this; hasn't Coyle already articulated that of the ~$22M in total revenue to be shared amongst the teams, basketball will get about $2-4M (I thought he mentioned that). If that is the case, we'll still will be fighting the SEC, Big East, & ACC schools that have large donor bases + strong NIL collectives with our not that significant "revenue sharing war chest" + pretty weak NIL collective.

College sports top donors: Ranking the most generous athletics boosters
*surprising that the Gophers come in at #48 w/ $199M in cumulative "donations and contributions" from 2005-2022 season (probably due to the push for funds for Huntington Bank Stadium, new basketball practice facility and other upgrades).

Thus, we won't be able to just leverage the money...you need a coach with cache / buzz to create excitement with the fans, but also mainly with the portal players and HS talent.

If Kevin McHale wasn't so old, he should be a target. His coaching career was solid, his GM career was not...but knowing Glen Taylor...how much of that can be put on McHale.

View attachment 35092
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Tough to get those NBA guys once they've had a taste of that life style. McHale probably doesn't want to coach but a guy like that would be nice to have around financially. Same with Jim Pete, Kevin Lynch, Fleck seems to do a good job with the alumni on the football side, hockey, the community just told Coyle to hire Motzko and make it happen, but hopefully we can get a coach who can inspire the alumni and donors to be involved.
 

I keep seeing people claim that a new coach will bring in NIL with him.

that only works if the coach knows some really rich people who are loyal to the coach - and not to an institution.

from what I read/hear about NIL, the really big money comes from rich people who are supporters of a specific school - Rich Guy X who graduated from Yahoo State and gives big bucks to Yahoo State. If the coach at Yahoo State leaves for Bozo State, the Rich Guy is still going to be supporting Yahoo State. the coach doesn't take the boosters with him to his next school.

yes - if MN hires a really well-known coach, that might spur some people to donate more than they are currently giving. but how many really well-known coaches are available - and would they come to MN - a program that is strugging to compete and wants to run things on the cheap?

I just don't see Coyle going out and hiring a big-time coach - who will want a lot of power - and paying a big-time salary.
 

There are 350+ Div 1 teams. They basically all have full rosters. Many players who enter the portal do not find new Div 1 homes the next season. Finding players isn't the problem. Coaching them is. Ben is not a (good, decent) coach. He should be a career assistant or a HC at a lower level.
 




EG#9 said:
How do we get players?

Two potential Gopher candidates matched up recently when VCU defeated Colorado State. Both Ryan Odom and Niko Medved have teams that are very Senior heavy in terms of production. Odom has a shot at making the NCAA's, while Medved appears to have a team that will finish middle of the pack at best in the Mountain West.

For the sake of argument lets say either guy gets an NIL budget around 30th in the country. Neither guy has much at all to bring with him from his former school. Neither guy has recruited high major kids since 2010 (Odom at Virginia Tech). Neither guy has the type of name recognition or buzz that will get kids interested on their own like a current or former power 5 coach or NBA coach would. They will be recruiting to a place that has been completely irrelevant for a long time and won't sell itself. How do they get a kid to take the same $700,000 they could get at NC State or Baylor and instead come to Minnesota? If the answer is giving the kid $850,000 then that hypothetical 30th NIL budget will not go nearly as far as it should.

I don't think this can be some sort of slow rebuild in our current situation. We can't have more Ben Johnson type years where the team is a complete non-factor and the Barn is empty. Visits for high school kids will be absolutely dead in that scenario and whatever short term NIL was raised (and Coyle better be raising now) won't be renewing if there isn't clear positive change. The new coach and Coyle will have to work together to put together a competitive roster and the outline of that plan needs to be in place before a hire is made.

I think we have to target someone who either has a significant player or players he can bring with him (ex Devries last offseason) or someone with the name recognition to interest players (and likely fans too). My dream candidate is a sitting head coach who is unhappy at his current school. That could be a Big East or Big 12 coach who sees the writing on the wall in terms of where revenue sharing will take things or possibly an SEC coach who is unhappy with his schools focus on football. We will likely never know if someone like that is out there unless/until news breaks that they are in negotiations to leave.
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I agree with this formula...the bring players with you part. But, for me that can't be the only element. We need a guy who when you ask around...everybody says: "the guy can coach" and then they launch into examples of amazing things that they witnessed....game winning plays after timeouts, winning the conference with their best player injured, befuddling the higher rated team with a surprise strategy that won the game ...etc etc. Teams play hard, they play smart, you wanna root for them.
Musselman was like that. Dutcher had Jimmy Williams and the Gophers had the best players.
Clem had moments. Since then, I can't think of a coach that the Gophers have had that was not going to get out coached more than I'd like at best or out coached in most every game like now.
 

Gophs24 said:
i just cant get Will Wades name out of my head when thinking of a guy that can bring what we are looking for.....name recognition, proven winner, and there is no such thing as cheating anymore....

Bucky McMillan-proven winner at a lower level is another guy that i think would bring some excitement with him....and a guy that continues to churn out wins
Click to expand...
I just can’t see the same guy who hired the culture-first PJ Fleck also hiring Will Wade. It feels about as close to 180 degrees of difference that you can get. One can make the argument that if Wade was willing to cheat by paying players when it wasn’t legal, what other lengths would he be willing to go to in order to win? Cutting corners academically? We’re still feeling the aftershocks from Clem doing that 25 years ago. I just don’t see Coyle making that jump.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
I just can’t see the same guy who hired the culture-first PJ Fleck also hiring Will Wade. It feels about as close to 180 degrees of difference that you can get. One can make the argument that if Wade was willing to cheat by paying players when it wasn’t legal, what other lengths would he be willing to go to in order to win? Cutting corners academically? We’re still feeling the aftershocks from Clem doing that 25 years ago. I just don’t see Coyle making that jump.
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With respect to academic corner cutting, the ONLY reason for the decades long walk in the desert is the holier than thou attitude of the u leadership.
See Tar Heels, UNC.

Mn needs to rid itself of that mentality.
 



BarnBurner said:
With respect to academic corner cutting, the ONLY reason for the decades long walk in the desert is the holier than thou attitude of the u leadership.
See Tar Heels, UNC.

Mn needs to rid itself of that mentality.
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I could not agree more on this. The U has been in my view VASTLY over concerned about the sports/education balance and how one plays off the other. I totally get it, the U is an academic institution, that's awesome, all in, but that doesn't mean sports can't play a big role in that. This sounds dumb, but I think it's a fact that the better your teams, the more student apps you get. If the would relax a bit that would help! I think Will Wade is the perfect example, a bit of a checkered past, thus I see no way we hire him (he'd be #1 on my list). While it almost feels inevitable thst we hire Medved, squeaky clean MN guy. He's fine, but to me that is a hire to appease the education side and to say that we are accepting that like 12th place every year in conference is fine.

Back to the original question, some great points made. I look at it like this, I would have 3 templates for hiring a men's basketball coach at the U
1. Defense first slow tempo coach. It's boring I get it, but ask WI/UVA how much better it is than losing. Those coaches tend to rely less on individual talent (which costs more in the portal) and relies on a team game. It's also a more consistent game. You don't need to make 20 3s to be in every game when you slow it down and try to win 60-56 as opposed to 82-76
2. Coach who has guys ready to come with him. Easiest example is IU and Cignetti. He brings a boatload of ready guys, they have a big year and now the hype train can roll. Eventually that levels out, but the initial hype is so strong it lifts you up from level A to B at least.
3. An A level talent evaluator. Sure this sounds like duh, but I am saying it's easy to go into a gym and see a Tre/Tyus, Hurt, Dawson and go yeah I want them! Well no kidding so does Duke KU UK UNC. This coach goes into that gym and sees the 2* Ja Morant, or the 3* Jordan Murphy type and goes that's the kid we can get and I can mold into a great player. This is a tough road as those guys likely leave to greener pastures, but this coach also can replace them easier.

Again I'd love a big splashy name like Muss or Wade, I just don't see it. So that's why I'm looking more at the archetypes above. Good discussion.
 

leib0039 said:
I could not agree more on this. The U has been in my view VASTLY over concerned about the sports/education balance and how one plays off the other. I totally get it, the U is an academic institution, that's awesome, all in, but that doesn't mean sports can't play a big role in that. This sounds dumb, but I think it's a fact that the better your teams, the more student apps you get. If the would relax a bit that would help! I think Will Wade is the perfect example, a bit of a checkered past, thus I see no way we hire him (he'd be #1 on my list). While it almost feels inevitable thst we hire Medved, squeaky clean MN guy. He's fine, but to me that is a hire to appease the education side and to say that we are accepting that like 12th place every year in conference is fine.

Back to the original question, some great points made. I look at it like this, I would have 3 templates for hiring a men's basketball coach at the U
1. Defense first slow tempo coach. It's boring I get it, but ask WI/UVA how much better it is than losing. Those coaches tend to rely less on individual talent (which costs more in the portal) and relies on a team game. It's also a more consistent game. You don't need to make 20 3s to be in every game when you slow it down and try to win 60-56 as opposed to 82-76
2. Coach who has guys ready to come with him. Easiest example is IU and Cignetti. He brings a boatload of ready guys, they have a big year and now the hype train can roll. Eventually that levels out, but the initial hype is so strong it lifts you up from level A to B at least.
3. An A level talent evaluator. Sure this sounds like duh, but I am saying it's easy to go into a gym and see a Tre/Tyus, Hurt, Dawson and go yeah I want them! Well no kidding so does Duke KU UK UNC. This coach goes into that gym and sees the 2* Ja Morant, or the 3* Jordan Murphy type and goes that's the kid we can get and I can mold into a great player. This is a tough road as those guys likely leave to greener pastures, but this coach also can replace them easier.

Again I'd love a big splashy name like Muss or Wade, I just don't see it. So that's why I'm looking more at the archetypes above. Good discussion.
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Medved doesn't do it for me. And I suspect most others feel the same way
 


Big Dawg said:
There are 350+ Div 1 teams. They basically all have full rosters. Many players who enter the portal do not find new Div 1 homes the next season. Finding players isn't the problem. Coaching them is. Ben is not a (good, decent) coach. He should be a career assistant or a HC at a lower level.
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He's a miserable assistant coach as well. He's never been around a winning college program. Everywhere Ben goes, they suck.
 

howeda7 said:
I know what is 100% certain NOT to generate NIL: Running it back for year 5 with a 17-62 Ben Johnson.
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I had season tickets for all of the Pitino era. I have not attended a home game or given a dollar since Johnson was hired. I'm not a large booster by any means but I gave a few hundred every year. I know I am not alone. A new coach will garner money and interest.
 



UpAndUnder43 said:
I had season tickets for all of the Pitino era. I have not attended a home game or given a dollar since Johnson was hired. I'm not a large booster by any means but I gave a few hundred every year. I know I am not alone. A new coach will garner money and interest.
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I was one of the most regular posters on the gophers thread during the Pitino and Tubby years. (It was time to move on from both Tubby and Pitino.). I stopped posting here when Johnson was hired, have not attended a game, and have watched less than 10 minutes total of gophers bb on television during the Johnson era.

Hiring someone with such a feeble track record to run a big ten program seemed crazy at the time and the last 3+ yrs certainly not a surprise.

Dennis Gates was one of the hot names at that time and was my preference. Who knows if he would've come here if offered, but pressure will certainly be on Coyle to find the right guy this time. I look forward to attending games again and following gophers bb.
 
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golf said:
Dennis Gates was one of the hot names at that time and was my preference. Who knows if he would've come here if offered, but pressure will certainly be on Coyle to find the right guy this time. I look forward to attending games again and following gophers bb.
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IIRC, it was reported that Dennis Gates declined to interview for the job when Coyle inquired.
 

howeda7 said:
IIRC, it was reported that Dennis Gates declined to interview for the job when Coyle inquired.
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Guess I don't recall such a definitive report, but you could certainly be correct. Perhaps Gates just wasn't interested in us.
 

golf said:
Guess I don't recall such a definitive report, but you could certainly be correct. Perhaps Gates just wasn't interested in us.
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that's part of the issue. it's easy to say "go out and hire a better coach."

but, that coach has to want to come to MN.

MN - a program that has struggled to be competitive, plays in an old building, doesn't have a lot of NIL money, and with an administration that is not necessarily supportive of athletics.

If you are hot-shot Coach X, why do you want to come to MN? the one answer would be money - if MN was willing to cough up a really big-time contract. But is that going to happen under Coyle and the current administration? I am skeptical.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that's part of the issue. it's easy to say "go out and hire a better coach."

but, that coach has to want to come to MN.

MN - a program that has struggled to be competitive, plays in an old building, doesn't have a lot of NIL money, and with an administration that is not necessarily supportive of athletics.

If you are hot-shot Coach X, why do you want to come to MN? the one answer would be money - if MN was willing to cough up a really big-time contract. But is that going to happen under Coyle and the current administration? I am skeptical.
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This is a terrible take and a terrible attitude. Glad you're not running things.
 

Bad Gopher said:
This is a terrible take and a terrible attitude. Glad you're not running things.
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In the new world of revenue sharing, the 34 B1G and SEC jobs are where it's at. Things will only get worse for the Big East and ACC. MN has one of those 34 jobs and a decent recruiting base. They can get a decent coach. Let's not put SON in charge of marketing it though.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
that's part of the issue. it's easy to say "go out and hire a better coach."

but, that coach has to want to come to MN.

MN - a program that has struggled to be competitive, plays in an old building, doesn't have a lot of NIL money, and with an administration that is not necessarily supportive of athletics.

If you are hot-shot Coach X, why do you want to come to MN? the one answer would be money - if MN was willing to cough up a really big-time contract. But is that going to happen under Coyle and the current administration? I am skeptical.
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$$ talks. Pay the right person, support them and they will come.
 


I'm not saying it's hopeless.

I'm just saying that "hire the right person" is a very simplistic answer to a complicated program.

in all honesty, if I was running the program, I would be looking for a really bright, energetic young coach - maybe a head coach at a lower-major or mid-major program. and most importantly, it needs to be someone who is motivated by the challenge - not coaxed to come by over-paying them.

But - along with finding that coach, the Athletic Department and the Administration will need to be willing to give the program a clean slate. don't judge a new coach by what has happened before.

they need to be willing to tell the new coach - this is your program. there are no restrictions - and no pre-imposed guidelines. you have free reign to build the program your own way.

of course, the school will need to provide enough resources to be competitive - including revenue-sharing and NIL.

that would be my blueprint.

I just don't think Coyle is the right AD to make that work. he doesn't have the guts or the vision to make it happen.
 

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