A few points on Flip Saunders

[EG#9]

There's a lot of negativity around Flip Saunders for "being fired 3 times" and/or leading the Wizards to a terrible record. Some have even suggested he's not really a nationally known name and is just famous in Minnesota.

Flip got fired from the Timberwolves job a 1/2 year after leading the Timberwolves to the Western Conference Finals. He was one game under.500 at that time and his second best players was an aging Sam Cassell (Spree was basically done at this point). As most know, the Wolves problems were personnel related.

Flip then was hired by Detroit and won 64, 53, and 59 games and winning the Central Division each year. Flip also advanced to the Eastern Conference Finals each year with a team that was lead by Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace. He was then fired at the end of his 3rd year, and we saw where the Pistons went from there.

Flip then took the Wizards job after a year off and put up 2 plus losing season with a terrible team. He had to deal with the Arenas fiasco (and more importantly his injury that he never recovered from) and coached the leagues youngest team this year. Patrick talking about Flip's record with the Wizard shows that he knows nothing about the NBA. That team simply cannot win because it is too young and has little to no veteran influence. Nick Young, Blatche, AND McGee on the same team? That's like 3 Spree's playing together from a headcase standpoint.

I think an argument can be made that more kids know who Flip Saunders is than Tubby Smith at this point in their respective careers. Flip was coaching in the NBA Eastern Conference Finals in 2007-2008 against the KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics and in 2006-2007 he coached against LeBron and the Cavs in the NBA Eastern Conference Finals. Tubby hasn't been on the map from a competitive standpoint for almost 7 years now (last time he finished above 4th in the SEC).

I want to be clear that I have reservations with Flip starting with his age and am not sure he's the best potential coach for the Gophers. I just think he's being branded unfairly in some circles as not being a good coach which is clearly not the case. I'd feel much better about Flip's chances for success than most of the hot mid-major coaching names.

 

[Stan]

Good well thought out post. On top of it, a hell of a lot more High School players know who Flip is than Tim Miles or Ben Jacobson, and I would agree that more probably know him than Tubby at this point as well.

 

[tikited]

I think Flip is a better basketball coach than Tubby is-simple as that. No hidden agenda. No bias. Just based on what I have seen over the years, I like Flip better. I don't care about his record with Wash. Phil Jackson couldn't get that team over .500. I don't care about Tubby's record at Kentucky. Dan Monson could have gotten some of those teams to a Final Four. I just think Flip can flat out coach. Don't know about his recruiting ability, but that is kind of a mystery no matter who you would go with. I know Tubby isn't going to be fired, but if he leaves on his own, I would love to have Flip coach the Gophers.

 

[dpodoll68]

You're completely glossing over his negatives because you have an agenda in promoting him as the next Gophers head coach. The Tubby haters do the same thing in reverse, that is to say, gloss over his positives because they have an agenda in getting rid of him ASAP. The facts are that both have positives, and while Tubby's recent production is not good and definitely below his personal standards, Flip's recent production is nothing short of just plain awful. There is no way to sugarcoat it. There is also no way to make a reasonable argument that Flip would be a better coach for the Gophers than Tubby. You can make the argument that he would be a better recruiter based on name recognition and a greater willingness to "play the game", but recruiting is worthless without the ability to coach (see Brewster, Tim). I'm not saying that Flip wouldn't be a better coach for the Gophers, but to suggest that he will is based on nothing more than hope, and certainly has no basis in history and actual facts. One thing I do know is that Tubby has reached the summit of his profession (Division I men's basketball head coach), while Flip has as much experience in the profession as I do.

 

[tikited]

You're completely glossing over his negatives because you have an agenda in promoting him as the next Gophers head coach. The Tubby haters do the same thing in reverse, that is to say, gloss over his positives because they have an agenda in getting rid of him ASAP. The facts are that both have positives, and while Tubby's recent production is not good and definitely below his personal standards, Flip's recent production is nothing short of just plain awful. There is no way to sugarcoat it. There is also no way to make a reasonable argument that Flip would be a better coach for the Gophers than Tubby. You can make the argument that he would be a better recruiter based on name recognition and a greater willingness to "play the game", but recruiting is worthless without the ability to coach (see Brewster, Tim). I'm not saying that Flip wouldnl't be a better coach for the Gophers, but to suggest that he will is based on nothing more than hope, and certainly has no basis in history and actual facts. One thing I do know is that Tubby has reached the summit of his profession (Division I men's basketball head coach), while Flip has as much experience in the profession as I do.

Not sure who exactly you were responding to, but I stated that I think Flip the better basketball coach between the two. A good coach can coach anywhere-doesn't always work, but the skill does transfer imo.

 

[Facts34]

You're completely glossing over his negatives because you have an agenda in promoting him as the next Gophers head coach. The Tubby haters do the same thing in reverse, that is to say, gloss over his positives because they have an agenda in getting rid of him ASAP. The facts are that both have positives, and while Tubby's recent production is not good and definitely below his personal standards, Flip's recent production is nothing short of just plain awful. There is no way to sugarcoat it. There is also no way to make a reasonable argument that Flip would be a better coach for the Gophers than Tubby. You can make the argument that he would be a better recruiter based on name recognition and a greater willingness to "play the game", but recruiting is worthless without the ability to coach (see Brewster, Tim). I'm not saying that Flip wouldnl't be a better coach for the Gophers, but to suggest that he will is based on nothing more than hope, and certainly has no basis in history and actual facts. One thing I do know is that Tubby has reached the summit of his profession (Division I men's basketball head coach), while Flip has as much experience in the profession as I do.

I can state with high confidence that Flip Saunders is a better offensive coach than Tubby Smith.

I can't say that he would be a better "program coach" or that he is our answer. But I can state that he is better than Tubby on the offensive end, without basing that entirely on hope - devoid of history and actual facts.

 

[savagerube]

I think Flip is a better basketball coach than Tubby is-simple as that. No hidden agenda. No bias. Just based on what I have seen over the years, I like Flip better. I don't care about his record with Wash. Phil Jackson couldn't get that team over .500. I don't care about Tubby's record at Kentucky. Dan Monson could have gotten some of those teams to a Final Four. I just think Flip can flat out coach. Don't know about his recruiting ability, but that is kind of a mystery no matter who you would go with. I know Tubby isn't going to be fired, but if he leaves on his own, I would love to have Flip coach the Gophers.

Ridiculous. Who's to say that Tubby couldn't have coached the 03-04 T'wolves to the Western Conference finals as well? Bad argument. How can you disregard Flip's coaching at Washington? For the second time in his NBA coaching career Flip had to coach a team that wasn't already set up for success; as a result he failed miserably. Flip was coaching the third youngest team in the NBA at Washington and fell flat on his face. An NBA coach who has young talent and can't coach them is exactly what the Gophers need. Sarcasm. I like Flip as a person, but what you're saying is preposterous. For the Tubby critics who say that he can't develop talent, two words: John Wall. Number 1 overall pick and he's been a complete bust. Can you partially blame Flip? Yes. Just like critics blame Sampson's progression on Tubby. Flip Saunders is just like Mike Brown of the NBA; both had a superstar (LeBron James/Kevin Garnett) and reaped the benefits of a veteran team. If you don't care about Tubby's record at Kentucky, then you can't look at Flip's record at Detroit because they won the championship just two years prior to him taking over.

 

[dpodoll68]

Not sure who exactly you were responding to, but I stated that I think Flip the better basketball coach between the two. A good coach can coach anywhere-doesn't always work, but the skill does transfer imo.

I should've made it clear that I was responding to the OP. I also disagree with your last sentence. There are far too many examples of coaches who were good-to-great at one level and average-to-complete disasters at another level (Steve Spurrier, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Tim Floyd, Mike Montgomery, Nick Saban, Butch Davis, etc., and Bill Walsh, Tom Coughlin, etc. going in the other direction) for it to be legitimately said that "coaching is coaching". It takes different skill sets to teach and coach at different levels. There are guys like Jimmy Johnson and Larry Brown who are great no matter where they are, but they are the exception. Moreover, you could make the argument that Flip was good when he had veteran teams with the Wolves and Pistons, but absolutely terrible with a really young squad in Washington. That would tend to support the "can't coach college players" more than it would to debunk it.

 

[Parski1]

Enough of the Flip for coach crap! The man can't make it in the NBA and has not been around college and recruiting. Just because he was a Gopher does not mean he should coach the Gophers.

 

[920/414 Gopher]

I should've made it clear that I was responding to the OP. I also disagree with your last sentence. There are far too many examples of coaches who were good-to-great at one level and average-to-complete disasters at another level (Steve Spurrier, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Tim Floyd, Mike Montgomery, Nick Saban, Butch Davis, etc., and Bill Walsh, Tom Coughlin, etc. going in the other direction) for it to be legitimately said that "coaching is coaching". It takes different skill sets to teach and coach at different levels. There are guys like Jimmy Johnson and Larry Brown who are great no matter where they are, but they are the exception. Moreover, you could make the argument that Flip was good when he had veteran teams with the Wolves and Pistons, but absolutely terrible with a really young squad in Washington. That would tend to support the "can't coach college players" more than it would to debunk it.

Yeah I never really understood the "he has years of experience coaching at the highest level" argument that some seem to be pushing on the forum in regards to Flip. As you pointed out, coaching in the pros does nothing to guarantee success at the college level. Two very different games.

 

[scher215]

I'd be in favor of Flip coaching the Gophers if the situation is right when Tubby is gone.

As far as I'm concerned, Tubby is currently our coach and that is who I will support. Should the day come that he moves on, I'd support whoever comes in. And if that is Flip, I'd be just fine with that. Luckily it isn't my decision who we fire / hire so I can just enjoy being a fan of the team.

 

[tikited]

Ridiculous. Who's to say that Tubby couldn't have coached the 03-04 T'wolves to the Western Conference finals as well? Bad argument. How can you disregard Flip's coaching at Washington? For the second time in his NBA coaching career Flip had to coach a team that wasn't already set up for success; as a result he failed miserably. Flip was coaching the third youngest team in the NBA at Washington and fell flat on his face. An NBA coach who has young talent and can't coach them is exactly what the Gophers need. Sarcasm. I like Flip as a person, but what you're saying is preposterous. For the Tubby critics who say that he can't develop talent, two words: John Wall. Number 1 overall pick and he's been a complete bust. Can you partially blame Flip? Yes. Just like critics blame Sampson's progression on Tubby. Flip Saunders is just like Mike Brown of the NBA; both had a superstar (LeBron James/Kevin Garnett) and reap the benefits. If you don't care about Tubby's record at Kentucky, then you can't look at Flip's record at Detroit because they won the championship just two years prior to him taking over.

I was using two examples out of many. I think Flip got more out of the Wolves than the other way around imo. He had KG and not much else and still got them 50+ wins multiple times. Nothing I wrote was preposterous as I never claimed he would be this or that. I simply wrote that I think Flip is a better basketball coach and if Tubby left, I'd love to have him. You might want to read more carefully next time.

 

[GophersOnTheRise]

I would rather have Flip as an assistant, but that probably isn't realistic. Who knows though.

 

[tikited]

I should've made it clear that I was responding to the OP. I also disagree with your last sentence. There are far too many examples of coaches who were good-to-great at one level and average-to-complete disasters at another level (Steve Spurrier, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Tim Floyd, Mike Montgomery, Nick Saban, Butch Davis, etc., and Bill Walsh, Tom Coughlin, etc. going in the other direction) for it to be legitimately said that "coaching is coaching". It takes different skill sets to teach and coach at different levels. There are guys like Jimmy Johnson and Larry Brown who are great no matter where they are, but they are the exception. Moreover, you could make the argument that Flip was good when he had veteran teams with the Wolves and Pistons, but absolutely terrible with a really young squad in Washington. That would tend to support the "can't coach college players" more than it would to debunk it.

Fair enough.

 

[savagerube]

I was using two examples out of many. I think Flip got more out of the Wolves than the other way around imo. He had KG and not much else and still got them 50+ wins multiple times. Nothing I wrote was preposterous as I never claimed he would be this or that. I simply wrote that I think Flip is a better basketball coach and if Tubby left, I'd love to have him. You might want to read more carefully next time.

I did read it carefully but when you say that Dan Monson could have "gotten some of those teams to the final 4" is one of the few preposterous statements in your post.

 

[Big Ten Mind]

If fans believe Flip will start outrecruiting, develop players, and game plan better than the likes of Thad Matta, Izzo, Painter, and Beilein on a consistent basis, they are dreaming (I didn't mention Bo Ryan or the up and coming Fran McCaffrey). Could he get them to the tourney? Sure, but this guy has never coached any defense.

Flip is a nice guy but don't ever see him contending for a Big Ten title @ the U.

 

[tikited]

I did read it carefully but when you say that Dan Monson could have "gotten some of those teams to the final 4" is one of the few preposterous statements in your post.

Not true at all. He led Gonzaga to the Elite 8 in 1999 with less talent than the average Kentucky team had. Failed here but would have done fine at Kentucky (not good enough for the fans but would have had a solid record-just like Tubby). Keep trying Rube.

 

[Parski1]

If fans believe Flip will start outrecruiting, develop players, and game plan better than the likes of Thad Matta, Izzo, Painter, and Beilein on a consistent basis, they are dreaming (I didn't mention Bo Ryan or the up and coming Fran McCaffrey). Could he get them to the tourney? Sure, but this guy has never coached any defense.

Flip is a nice guy but don't ever see him contending for a Big Ten title @ the U.

Contending? I don't see him ever coaching @ the U.

 

[savagerube]

Not true at all. He led Gonzaga to the Elite 8 in 1999 with less talent than the average Kentucky team had. Failed here but would have done fine at Kentucky (not good enough for the fans but would have had a solid record-just like Tubby). Keep trying Rube.

Gonzaga made it the NCAA Tourney 12 straight seasons after Monson left, twice to the sweet 16. Gonzaga has made the dance EVERY year since Monson left. I suppose that was all Monson too, right? Besides, you said multiple Final 4 Appearances, not one Elite 8.

 

[tjgesquire]

Try This

If fans believe Flip will start outrecruiting, develop players, and game plan better than the likes of Thad Matta, Izzo, Painter, and Beilein on a consistent basis, they are dreaming (I didn't mention Bo Ryan or the up and coming Fran McCaffrey). Could he get them to the tourney? Sure, but this guy has never coached any defense.

Replace "Flip" with "Tubby" and "defense" with "offense" in the statment above and it becomes truth rather than conjecture.

 

[tikited]

Gonzaga made it the NCAA Tourney 12 straight seasons after Monson left, twice to the sweet 16. Gonzaga has made the dance EVERY year since Monson left. I suppose that was all Monson too, right? Besides, you said multiple Final 4 Appearances, not one Elite 8. Northern Iowa made the Elite 8 once. I suppose that means Northern Iowa's coach Ben Jacobson could lead Kentucky to multiple final fours as well?

Probably. You might have been able to get Kentucky pretty far with some of those teams.

No, you're right. Flip is a failure, and so is Monson, and anyone else you don't really like. It's cool-my bad.

 

[savagerube]

Probably. You might have been able to get Kentucky pretty far with some of those teams.

No, you're right. Flip is a failure, and so is Monson, and anyone else you don't really like. It's cool-my bad.

My mistake. Northern Iowa made the Sweet 16, not elite 8 so that makes part of my argument weak. I don't think Flip is a complete failure but he was at Washington, which should be a concern to any fan that wants him leading Gopher Basketball.

 

[tikited]

My mistake. Northern Iowa made the Sweet 16, not elite 8 so that makes part of my argument weak. .

So I win then!

 

[savagerube]

So I win then!

\

No because Dan Monson's one Elite 8 appearance doesn't mean he would of made multiple final fours with Kentucky. That's still ridiculous. I can just replace Northern Iowa with George Mason and VCU and my argument still stands. You also said that Phil Jackson wouldn't coach Washington to .500. Rick Adelman is currently at .500 record with a team that had a worse record than Washington in 2010/2011. That makes me believe that Adelman could possibly get Washington to .500.

 

[dpodoll68]

Just for the record, I think Flip is a good coach and he absolutely got a raw deal at the end of his Wolves tenure. That being said, there is no rational reason to believe he would improve this squad. It is based on hope. There is no evidence to suggest he would be better at college coaching in general, or in coaching the Gophers in particular, than Tubby.

 

[tikited]

\

No because Dan Monson's one Elite 8 appearance doesn't mean he would of made multiple final fours with Kentucky. That's still ridiculous. I can just replace Northern Iowa with George Mason and VCU and my argument still stands. You also said that Phil Jackson wouldn't coach Washington to .500. Rick Adelman is currently at .500 record with a team that had a worse record than Washington in 2010/2011. That makes me believe that Adelman could possibly get Washington to .500.

Please.. Adelman has a much better squad this year to work with. Rubio is a HUGE difference maker by himself. Rubio might have even saved Rambis his job last year and Rambis might be the worst coach I have ever witnessed. Talk about ridiculous!

 

[savagerube]

I agree with you on that. However Aldeman's presence is on par with Rubio's. It still doesn't help your original argument about Flip being a better coach hands down. You still haven't proven that. You have proved that Monson went to an elite 8 and then alluded to the "fact" that he could reach multiple final fours with the Kentucky Basketball teams during Tubby's tenure.

 

[minngg]

Just for the record, I think Flip is a good coach and he absolutely got a raw deal at the end of his Wolves tenure. That being said, there is no rational reason to believe he would improve this squad. It is based on hope. There is no evidence to suggest he would be better at college coaching in general, or in coaching the Gophers in particular, than Tubby.

"Based on HOPE?" You're whole argument on Tubby is based on hope. My argument is based on his results here. At least be coinsistent.

 

[dpodoll68]

"Based on HOPE?" You're whole argument on Tubby is based on hope. My argument is based on his results here. At least be coinsistent.

When did I say anything different? Boy, you really showed me, didn't you?

 

[minngg]

When did I say anything different? Boy, you really showed me, didn't you?

But you can argue that the poster's belief is based on hope? Guess you showed him.