A Coronavirus Vaccine Won’t Work if People Don’t Take It

Pompous Elitist

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At least you agree that spreading disease is an infringement on other people’s liberty. Positive step, PAP. Credit granted. @Section2 will simply pretend he never saw the post, because he’s boxed in tighter than....well, very tight.

Those worried about infection have options to protect themselves. Luckily the most vulnerable that cannot wear effective PPE or must go to places like clinics and stores at times , ie infants and toddlers, are at very low risk from COVID-19.
 

Pompous Elitist

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Unfortunately daily vaccine numbers continue to fall even with teenagers now eligible. I know my experience doesn’t necessarily represent everyone but I’m seeing a lot of people just changing their reasoning for not getting it. And, unfortunately, a lot of people still making the decision based on false info.

At the risk of sounding like Mr. DJT there is misinformation and scaremongering on both sides, mostly well-meaning people. Some may have conflict of interest.
 

Pompous Elitist

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No one is asking for or waiting for incentives. It is your party that is offering them - and now complaining about them????

Shocking a $2 value lottery ticket didn’t sway large numbers of the hesitant. Something, something trust lost, fiasco, dishonesty.
 

Wally

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The vaccine mfg'ers would love nothing more than for there to be need for a yearly booster.
The variants!
Get your booster😂😂😂

I already got two Pfizer shots and two Moderna shots, just J&J left to go...
🤪🤪🤪🤪
 

Pompous Elitist

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The variants!
Get your booster😂😂😂

I already got two Pfizer shots and two Moderna shots, just J&J left to go...
🤪🤪🤪🤪

Don’t think they wouldn’t do it...can never be too safe. The CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna have already stated findings the best scientists in the world have not yet elucidated or observed in the real world (short duration of immunity or variant immune escape).

There will be a lobbying campaign for prophylactic boosters and/or tweaked vaccines for variants with literally zero scientific evidence in support. It’s already started. The rationale will be risk of asymptomatic spread, and of course the vaccines are totally safe without adverse effects. The risk/benefit calculation doesn’t matter (to some).
 


GopherJake

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Those worried about infection have options to protect themselves. Luckily the most vulnerable that cannot wear effective PPE or must go to places like clinics and stores at times , ie infants and toddlers, are at very low risk from COVID-19.
I essentially agree. Just pointing out the hypocrisy and flexible "principles" of our resident snake @Section2.
 

GophersInIowa

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At the risk of sounding like Mr. DJT there is misinformation and scaremongering on both sides, mostly well-meaning people. Some may have conflict of interest.
What misinformation is being put out there on the pro-vaccine side? I would argue that at the very least the people pushing the anti-vaxx movement the most are not well-meaning at all. They’re purposely lying for personal gain. And many of the people that believe their nonsense lies have already made up their minds with this vaccine and/or all vaccines.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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What misinformation is being put out there on the pro-vaccine side? I would argue that at the very least the people pushing the anti-vaxx movement the most are not well-meaning at all. They’re purposely lying for personal gain. And many of the people that believe their nonsense lies have already made up their minds with this vaccine and/or all vaccines.
At the risk of being argumentative, and my argument is most certainly not with you specifically, but how in the world do you know what's "false information" at this point? A huge majority of what we were fed for the last 12-15 months turned out to be false information but now we're certain of what's the right information? How can anyone be so sure of anything with regard to the virus or the vaccines available at this point in time?

I'm sorry, but at this point in time, EVERYONE should make the decision that is best for them based on the information that they have available to them and that they can sort through and nobody should be looking down their noses at anyone for making decisions for themselves and their immediate families; that's the height of arrogance and hubris
 




GophersInIowa

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At the risk of being argumentative, and my argument is most certainly not with you specifically, but how in the world do you know what's "false information" at this point? A huge majority of what we were fed for the last 12-15 months turned out to be false information but now we're certain of what's the right information? How can anyone be so sure of anything with regard to the virus or the vaccines available at this point in time?

I'm sorry, but at this point in time, EVERYONE should make the decision that is best for them based on the information that they have available to them and that they can sort through and nobody should be looking down their noses at anyone for making decisions for themselves and their immediate families; that's the height of arrogance and hubris
You’re proving my point with that statement. At a minimum, that’s a significant exaggeration.

As for the vaccine lies, many of them are extremely easy to debunk as they go against the basic understanding. For instance, many people are saying these vaccines shed but that would take a live virus but none of the vaccines include a live virus.
 

Pompous Elitist

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What misinformation is being put out there on the pro-vaccine side? I would argue that at the very least the people pushing the anti-vaxx movement the most are not well-meaning at all. They’re purposely lying for personal gain. And many of the people that believe their nonsense lies have already made up their minds with this vaccine and/or all vaccines.

1)Well, the risks of adverse events are continually misstated, hopefully out of lack of understanding rather than malice. For example, you might hear the risk of VITT is “1 in a million”. However, that’s similar to saying if two people have sex each one has a 50/50 chance of getting pregnant. There are subgroups of people that clearly pop for risk of VITT and now the myocarditis concerns. The former seems to be mostly in child-bearing age women and the latter in young men, maybe particularly teenage males - between one in 3000 and one in 6000 men ages 16 to 24 who received the vaccine. Furthermore the risk of a young, healthy teenager having severe Covid and hospitalization is fairly rare.

The risks of vaccination in the subgroups is significantly higher than what the headlines state and from some public health experts. I consider this misleading. Would you give your child J&J ? Would you give your teenage son Pfizer until more is known? Luckily most of the myocarditis seems likely to not have long term consequences but even that seems murky at the moment. Perhaps the risk/benefit will still be favorable.

As before, IMHO for the vast majority of adults the vaccines are a no-brainer. However, it’s clear we may not completely understand the pathophysiology of the immune response, bio-distribution of spike protein in some, and potential adverse effects. We should be more humble about what we don’t understand.

There are clearly people in it for personal gain on all sides, as well. The anti-vax docs could be accused of committing malpractice. This brings me to my second bullet point.

2)There is also zero evidence natural infection isn’t as durable or effective as vaccination. There are some unproven hypotheses and lab antibody studies out there. There are OTOH real world studies showing durable immunity in prior infected.

Prior infected are being asked to get two vaccines. Why? Based on what?

Herd immunity comes from prior infected and vaccinated, not vaccinated alone. Given the very high rate of infection in young people and very high vaccination rates in older people we are very likely closing in the end of pandemic in the US.

Two quick examples of misinformation.


 
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GophersInIowa

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1)Well, the risks of adverse events are continually misstated, hopefully out of lack of understanding rather than malice. For example, you might hear the risk of VITT is “1 in a million”. However, that’s similar to saying if two people have sex each one has a 50/50 chance of getting pregnant. There are subgroups of people that clearly pop for risk of VITT and now the myocarditis concerns. The former seems to be mostly in child-bearing age women and the latter in young men, maybe particularly teenage males - between one in 3000 and one in 6000 men ages 16 to 24 who received the vaccine. Furthermore the risk of a young, healthy teenager having severe Covid and hospitalization is fairly rare.

The risks of vaccination in the subgroups is significantly higher than what the headlines state and from some public health experts. I consider this misleading. Would you give your child J&J ? Would you give your teenage son Pfizer until more is known? Luckily most of the myocarditis seems likely to not have long term consequences but even that seems murky at the moment. Perhaps the risk/benefit will still be favorable.

As before, IMHO for the vast majority of adults the vaccines are a no-brainer. However, it’s clear we may not completely understand the pathophysiology of the immune response, bio-distribution of spike protein in some, and potential adverse effects. We should be more humble about what we don’t understand.

There are clearly people in it for personal gain on all sides, as well. The anti-vax docs could be accused of committing malpractice. This brings me to my second bullet point.

2)There is also zero evidence natural infection isn’t as durable or effective as vaccination. There are some unproven hypotheses and lab antibody studies out there. There are OTOH real world studies showing durable immunity in prior infected.

Prior infected are being asked to get two vaccines. Why? Based on what?

Herd immunity comes from prior infected and vaccinated, not vaccinated alone. Given the very high rate of infection in young people and very high vaccination rates in older people we are very likely closing in the end of pandemic in the US.

Two quick examples of misinformation.


All valid points. For the first part, I agree it can be a misleading to some extent. At the same time I think that pales in comparison to the straight up lies anti-vaxx groups and others are spreading.

For the second part of your reply, there’s been lots of discussion if previous infected need just one dose. There’s a lot of evidence that only the one is really needed. Why they haven’t changed this recommendation, I’m not sure. Maybe because we’re no longer seeing a shortage in vaccines? So they’re being extra cautious? Very valid to ask this question.
 



GopherWeatherGuy

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2)There is also zero evidence natural infection isn’t as durable or effective as vaccination. There are some unproven hypotheses and lab antibody studies out there. There are OTOH real world studies showing durable immunity in prior infected.

Prior infected are being asked to get two vaccines. Why? Based on what?

Herd immunity comes from prior infected and vaccinated, not vaccinated alone. Given the very high rate of infection in young people and very high vaccination rates in older people we are very likely closing in the end of pandemic in the US.

Two quick examples of misinformation.



This continues to be the biggest push of misinformation from some doctors and politicians. Natural immunity continues to be largely ignored in pushing everyone to get the vaccine when a large percentage of the population already had the disease and does not currently need the vaccine.

Suddenly our natural immune systems no longer exist and everyone must get the vaccine, which is an abomination of Science.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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You’re proving my point with that statement. At a minimum, that’s a significant exaggeration.

As for the vaccine lies, many of them are extremely easy to debunk as they go against the basic understanding. For instance, many people are saying these vaccines shed but that would take a live virus but none of the vaccines include a live virus.
I think it's safe to say we're both proving each other's point; there's a ton of misinformation on both sides of the equation. It seems at this point in time, the only info you want to acknowledge as misinformation is information that doesn't enforce your current beliefs?

COVID seems to be no different than any other issue we currently have going on in our country; everyone is seeking affirmation, not information. The only info people are interested in is information that fortifies what they already believe. Just look at JTF, the king of affirmation seeking.
 

GophersInIowa

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I think it's safe to say we're both proving each other's point; there's a ton of misinformation on both sides of the equation. It seems at this point in time, the only info you want to acknowledge as misinformation is information that doesn't enforce your current beliefs?

COVID seems to be no different than any other issue we currently have going on in our country; everyone is seeking affirmation, not information. The only info people are interested in is information that fortifies what they already believe. Just look at JTF, the king of affirmation seeking.
What specific lies are being told that is convincing people to get the vaccine? Lies are influencing people to not get the vaccine a lot more than the influencing people to get them.
 




Wally

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For the second part of your reply, there’s been lots of discussion if previous infected need just one dose. There’s a lot of evidence that only the one is really needed. Why they haven’t changed this recommendation, I’m not sure.

They would have to do a trial to get that approved. What motovation would a drug company have to do that trial when the two dose protocol is approved.
 



GophersInIowa

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See GWG’s post #974
Natural immunity is not being ignored. Lots of discussion online and studies looking at natural immunity. GWG is assuming that natural immunity is automatically just as effective as a vaccine. That is not always true and there just isn't enough data yet to say one way or another with this virus. It could be just as effective in some and not in others. Some have suggested only one vaccine is needed for those already infected. A recent study shows the vaccine may give natural immunity a boost against Covid.

Racaniello: I think it's an interesting question and there's no one answer because every virus is slightly different. For example, the human papillomavirus, the vaccines we have make amazing immunity, better than immunity you get from natural infection, because there's so much protein in those vaccines. And you end up having great mucosal immunity, which is what you need there. On the other hand, other vaccines allow infection without disease. Of course, the polio vaccines were only tested to prevent polio, not to prevent infection. That's all we cared about.

Now for SARS-CoV-2, yes, having other proteins in the mix is a good idea. I think it depends on the severity of the disease. We did a paper 6 months ago which studied people who had died from COVID. So this was a very serious disease. And their lymph nodes had no germinal centers, which means no memory B cells to SARS-CoV-2. Even though they had antibodies, they had very low affinity antibodies.

And so the outcome of that was the idea that if you have a very serious disease, then you're not likely to have a long memory response. Now, those are people who died. So we don't know how it applies to people who have lived because they were able to take out their lymph nodes and study them. And it's not so easy to do in people who have survived. So a natural infection can have consequences. So, on the one hand, yes, you make a lot of viral proteins and those are great epitopes for mainly T cells because I think most of the antibodies that are going to block infection are going to be spike directed. But any other viral protein could in theory be a T-cell target. So you'll get more epitopes.

The counter view is that the virus may encode immune antagonists that could alter the immune response in some way that's not as good as, say, a vaccine. So it really depends. And we don't know enough yet. So I think if people are making a blanket statement that natural infection is always better, that's not always correct. It really depends on the virus.

Vaccination boosts the natural immunity in people infected with the novel coronavirus so much that they are likely protected even from the emerging variants, according to a study
Researchers at the Rockefeller University in the US analysed antibodies present in the blood of COVID patients, tracking the evolution of these molecules.

The 63 people in the study, which has not been peer-reviewed yet, had COVID in the spring of last year.

Data from their follow-ups show that, over time, antibodies produced by the immune system's memory B cells got better at neutralising SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.

The memory B cells serve as an immune reservoir that contains a diverse collection of antibodies.

The study suggests that these people were developing an improved, long lasting defence against the virus.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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Natural immunity is not being ignored. Lots of discussion online and studies looking at natural immunity. GWG is assuming that natural immunity is automatically just as effective as a vaccine. That is not always true and there just isn't enough data yet to say one way or another with this virus. It could be just as effective in some and not in others. Some have suggested only one vaccine is needed for those already infected. A recent study shows the vaccine may give natural immunity a boost against Covid.






We have more, long term data that proves efficacy of natural infection vs the vaccine. Low risk populations being able to fight the disease off with little to no symptoms and having immunity for the foreseeable future is a great thing for those people. There has been more data coming out that shows people infected with one of the previous SARS viruses also still have antibodies to fight this one.

That is what's being ignored by some politicians and Scientists. Just like everyone has to lock down, everyone has to wear masks, now everyone has to get the vaccine, which is not necessary.

Not everyone needs the vaccine, especially children, young healthy adults, and people who have recovered from COVID-19 with no issues. The 70% vaccination metric needed to 'open things back up' excludes natural immunity, which is wrong, and not based on data and Science. Many places are well over 70% immunity when factoring in natural immunity.
 

KillerGopherFan

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Natural immunity is not being ignored. Lots of discussion online and studies looking at natural immunity. GWG is assuming that natural immunity is automatically just as effective as a vaccine. That is not always true and there just isn't enough data yet to say one way or another with this virus. It could be just as effective in some and not in others. Some have suggested only one vaccine is needed for those already infected. A recent study shows the vaccine may give natural immunity a boost against Covid.





And I have advocated for that myself (not here). I’m all for 1 shot after natural immunity has warn off. But some experts only like to refer to vaccinated immunity.
 

Wally

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I’m all for 1 shot after natural immunity has warn off.

In other words you're all for pulling something out of your ass without good data.

Or am I wrong and you can point me to the clinical trial that shows one shot is just as effective for people who have had covid.
 

GopherBlood666

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"The CDC uploaded 4,406 deaths to VAERS on Friday, May 28th, along with 262,521 injuries, including 3,299 permanent disabilities, 34,475 emergency room visits, and 14,986 hospitalizations."

"It is common knowledge now that reports submitted to VAERS for vaccine injuries and deaths historically are less than 1% of actual deaths and injuries. Most go unreported."

These are US numbers only for reference.

 

KillerGopherFan

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"The CDC uploaded 4,406 deaths to VAERS on Friday, May 28th, along with 262,521 injuries, including 3,299 permanent disabilities, 34,475 emergency room visits, and 14,986 hospitalizations."

"It is common knowledge now that reports submitted to VAERS for vaccine injuries and deaths historically are less than 1% of actual deaths and injuries. Most go unreported."

These are US numbers only for reference.

The 2nd paragraph really addresses a good point, one that I made while arguing about the VAERS reporting.

Few of these reports and data are investigated or analyzed unless a very clear relationship is apparent. These reports don’t mean that they are side effects of the vaccines, but they need to be investigated, if for no other reason than increasing confidence that the vaccines are relatively safe.

I don’t think there’s any question that the risk of taking these vaccines is far less than the risk of getting Covid, but as Covid becomes less and less prevalent, there could be legitimate reasons for more individuals to question the need for taking a vaccine.

More investigation and transparency would be helpful to determining that, but that’s not the priority for our health officials right now. Getting as many people vaccinated as possible is the priority.
 


FormerFatOL

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This continues to be the biggest push of misinformation from some doctors and politicians. Natural immunity continues to be largely ignored in pushing everyone to get the vaccine when a large percentage of the population already had the disease and does not currently need the vaccine.

Suddenly our natural immune systems no longer exist and everyone must get the vaccine, which is an abomination of Science.

The ignoring-of-natural-immunity issue has stumped me. Like many many COVID related things, it just doesn't make sense. All I can think of is that those in charge think the positive COVID testing results are bullshit (a high volume of false positives) and many people really don't have immunity. Short of far-fetched conspiracy theories, that's all that makes sense to me.
 




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