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Ope3 said:
It's widely been accepted that was the entire point of LIV. No other reason to dump $1.4 billion (and counting) on an entity that will never turn a dime worth of profit.
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They do this with all of their entertainment investments.

Do you think they're going to make their money back on everything they've dumped into the WWE? They've put money into a ton of different sporting events that will never turn a penny of profit (MMA, WWE, Racing, Horseracing, Tennis). IMO, it's entirely because they want to show off their money and enter the world's stage.

The idea that they did something that will absolutely piss people off (break up the PGA) and get tons of media attention to try to deflect from the Khasoggi murder is a wild theory. I don't disagree that others probably agree with the theory, but it seems silly to me. People are way more likely to be talking about his murder today because of LIV than they would be without LIV.
 

RememberMurray said:
No, that is NOT the only difference.

The Saudis did not create Disney, EA Sports, Heathrow, etc. They merely invested in them. They are free to invest in anything they like. They have enough money that they could invest in the entire S&P 500 if they chose. But them buying stock in something doesn't make the entire company nefarious.

In contrast, the Saudis did create LIV, and they did it specifically to sports wash their crimes.

To me there's a huge difference, even if you can't see it.
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How does doing something that pisses people off that brings way more attention to you "wash" your crimes? That doesn't make sense to me.

The difference is that I don't believe they did it to wash their crimes and I don't believe the people who are pretending that is why they don't like LIV. I believe the people don't like Saudi Arabia and their moral issue with Saudi Arabia will be enough for them to sacrifice the things they don't care about (sacrifice in theory only) but not enough for them to sacrifice the things they actually like.

I believe you think Saudis are evil.
I believe you think (and I agree) they killed Khassoggi.
I don't believe either of them is why you don't watch/like LIV.

**By "you", I mean the generic average person. I am not speaking for you specifically.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
They do this with all of their entertainment investments.

Do you think they're going to make their money back on everything they've dumped into the WWE? They've put money into a ton of different sporting events that will never turn a penny of profit (MMA, WWE, Racing, Horseracing, Tennis). IMO, it's entirely because they want to show off their money and enter the world's stage.

The idea that they did something that will absolutely piss people off (break up the PGA) and get tons of media attention to try to deflect from the Khasoggi murder is a wild theory. I don't disagree that others probably agree with the theory, but it seems silly to me. People are way more likely to be talking about his murder today because of LIV than they would be without LIV.
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I think the motivation for investing in the WWE is exactly the same as starting LIV.
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
Never understood the LIV outrage. Those folks should get a life really. I never watched a LIV event and I don't care if they sink or swim but the guy sitting on his couch losing his mind over what they did really need to let it go and focus on other things.
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What's not to understand that fans of the PGA Tour liked the 6-8 events in which the World's Best Golfers competed against each other, that were in addition to the Majors? LIV cherrypicked about 20% including a few of best (Top 10 golfers) in the world, thereby diminishing the fields.

It also had a significant impact on the Ryder Cup Team selections was well as who would be Captains.

How would the average NFL fan react if the Saudi's stared their own Pro-Football league and took 15-20% of the current NFLPA including Josh Allen, Joe Burrow & Lamar Jackson? The same as they did when the AFL & USFL started, upset that their favorite league was being watered down.

I'm not "sitting on my couch losing my mind over what they did". I'm simply not consuming either.

The opposite of love is not hate or outrage. It's indifference.
 

Ope3 said:
How would the average NFL fan react if the Saudi's stared their own Pro-Football league and took 15-20% of the current NFLPA including Josh Allen, Joe Burrow & Lamar Jackson? The same as they did when the AFL & USFL started, upset that their favorite league was being watered down.
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This is really an odd analogy considering the number of viewers that each sport has.

Ope3 said:
I'm not "sitting on my couch losing my mind over what they did". I'm simply not consuming either.

The opposite of love is not hate or outrage. It's indifference.
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This really isn't worth a spirited discussion. I completely respect and agree that you're not upset about this. To argue that there's wasn't significant upheaval and wringing of the hands over this is really not a genuine argument. You could see the steam coming off of Brandel Chamblee's head over this on a weekly basis on the Golf Channel, and many others weighed in as well.

Like I said, not worth a big discussion, it's completely okay for folks to have different opinions over this. At least it is so far anyway....
 


Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
This is really an odd analogy considering the number of viewers that each sport has.
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The overall viewership between the PGA Tour and NFL wasn't the point of the analogy. What I was getting at, is there would be a certain percentage of NFL fans pissed off at such a fracture, just as there are about golf fans not seeing beat vs best on a more frequent basis.

I could have just as easily said NHL which does have more comparable viewership. If the Saudis started an 8 team league taking 20% of NHL talent including a few stars like Eichel or Boldy, hockey fans would be upset by the watered down talent and watch/attend fewer games.

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
This really isn't worth a spirited discussion. I completely respect and agree that you're not upset about this. To argue that there's wasn't significant upheaval and wringing of the hands over this is really not a genuine argument. You could see the steam coming off of Brandel Chamblee's head over this on a weekly basis on the Golf Channel, and many others weighed in as well.

Like I said, not worth a big discussion, it's completely okay for folks to have different opinions over this. At least it is so far anyway....
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I don't dispute that there is such hand wringing. I just think there are vastly more that while not being outraged, watch less PGA Tour and zero LIV because the product stinks.

It's more than fair to reject LIV on its own lack of merit.

Outtasite. Outtamind.

Those type of folks aren't likely post on socal media about not watching something, typically.

I did see Chamblee's quote that "more people watch Pickleball than LIV*, which I got a chuckle. No idea if it's true or hyperbole, but LIV ratings are so miniscule, it can't be off by more than a few thousand either way.
 
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Bob_Loblaw said:
How does doing something that pisses people off that brings way more attention to you "wash" your crimes? That doesn't make sense to me.

The difference is that I don't believe they did it to wash their crimes and I don't believe the people who are pretending that is why they don't like LIV. I believe the people don't like Saudi Arabia and their moral issue with Saudi Arabia will be enough for them to sacrifice the things they don't care about (sacrifice in theory only) but not enough for them to sacrifice the things they actually like.

I believe you think Saudis are evil.
I believe you think (and I agree) they killed Khassog
I don't believe either of them is why you don't watch/like LIV.

**By "you", I mean the generic average person. I am not speaking for you specifically.
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"They're scary motherf---ers to get involved with. We know they killed [Jamal] Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates".

- Phil Mickelson

That quote was before he took the loot anyway. If he said that, it seems quite reasonable a substantial number of "average" people would stay away from LIV.
 

How many golfers out there carry a handicap?

I did a quick search and the rough numbers sound like 15-20% of golfers carry a USGA handicap or GHIN index. That actually sounds kinda high, I don't know that many people who carry a handicap as far as recreational weekend golfers.

It's hard to play in very many tournaments, outside of just plain fundraisers, without a legit USGA Handicap. I've gone lengths of time where I didn't carry one but the club I belong to now I need one for everything. I actually think the fee for the handicap is included in my dues/charges.
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
How many golfers out there carry a handicap?

I did a quick search and the rough numbers sound like 15-20% of golfers carry a USGA handicap or GHIN index. That actually sounds kinda high, I don't know that many people who carry a handicap as far as recreational weekend golfers.

It's hard to play in very many tournaments, outside of just plain fundraisers, without a legit USGA Handicap. I've gone lengths of time where I didn't carry one but the club I belong to now I need one for everything. I actually think the fee for the handicap is included in my dues/charges.
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A lot of Club Members are automatically enrolled.

To play or even sub in a League it's also required which will drive up numbers. My club has a Monday Night league, all 128 participants have a Handicap.

At lots of Private clubs it's included (or discounted) as part of the Membership (as you have indicated as possible at yours), others one has to "opt out" to not be billed for GHIN #.

I have a GHIN#. Even for a $10 Nassau, my crew does not looks favorably on those without cards. Peer pressure.
 
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Ope3 said:
A lot of Club Members are automatically enrolled.

To play or even sub in a League it's also required which will drive up numbers. My club has a Monday Night league, all 128 participants have a Handicap.

At lots of Private clubs it's included (or discounted) as part of the Membership (as you have indicated as possible at yours), others one has to "opt out" to not be billed for GHIN #.

I have a GHIN#. Even for a $10 Nassau, my crew does not looks favorably on those without cards. Peer pressure.
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This guy gets it. So many people used to come into the clue house claiming a hole in one and ask for us to contact media. Employee would then ask for the PGA card.
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
How many golfers out there carry a handicap?

I did a quick search and the rough numbers sound like 15-20% of golfers carry a USGA handicap or GHIN index. That actually sounds kinda high, I don't know that many people who carry a handicap as far as recreational weekend golfers.

It's hard to play in very many tournaments, outside of just plain fundraisers, without a legit USGA Handicap. I've gone lengths of time where I didn't carry one but the club I belong to now I need one for everything. I actually think the fee for the handicap is included in my dues/charges.
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Having worked in the golf industry for 15 years, I've had a USGA Handicap and GHIN # since I was 12 even though they were never required for Junior events.

Working at Bunker Hills, you couldn't participate in Men's Club events without one and our league enrollment as a public course was enormous.
 

Ope3 said:
I think the motivation for investing in the WWE is exactly the same as starting LIV.
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There was an excellent piece in a magazine years back when LIV in its infancy about how this was a strategy to change the narrative from their human rights abuses, which involves far more than just the journalist’s murder.

They have a bad brand and are trying to change it systematically through sports.
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
There was an excellent piece in a magazine years back when LIV in its infancy about how this was a strategy to change the narrative from their human rights abuses, which involves far more than just the journalist’s murder.

They have a bad brand and are trying to change systematically through sports.
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The whole discussion is rehashed from the previous "All Things Golf" as opposed to this "All Things golf" thread when the LIV was starting around page 2.

All Things Golf

gopherhole.com gopherhole.com
 



Slim Tubby said:
Having worked in the golf industry for 15 years, I've had a USGA Handicap and GHIN # since I was 12 even though they were never required for Junior events.

Working at Bunker Hills, you couldn't participate in Men's Club events without one and our league enrollment as a public course was enormous.
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How much would you say the system has changed at all in the last few years? I know with the attempt to cut down on sand bagging, they have made some changes to things (or so I heard?).

One thing I heard recently (not sure how accurate), they say you should only be able to play to your handicap number about 25% of the time. Most people often think of a handicap as right around their "average" score, which is most definitely not the case.

My club is a particularly difficult course and for tournament play, from the tees I play, my handicap is adjusted UP somewhere around 2 strokes, basically two added to my GHIN index
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
How much would you say the system has changed at all in the last few years? I know with the attempt to cut down on sand bagging, they have made some changes to things (or so I heard?).
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I've heard the same about algorithm changes but sandbagging will always be an issue. Most golfers play with the same group of guys and unless they hold each other accountable when logging their scores, there really is no way to completely police it.
Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
One thing I heard recently (not sure how accurate), they say you should only be able to play to your handicap number about 25% of the time. Most people often think of a handicap as right around their "average" score, which is most definitely not the case.
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I don't know the formula but your handicap will almost always be 3-5 strokes lower than your average over par round. Back when I was playing 5-6 rounds per week, I was a 2-handicap. I could shoot an occasional 70-72 but 80% of the time, I was scoring somewhere between 75-80.

I've played in past national events like the Oldsmobile Scramble that required four (4) A-D players qualified by USGA handicaps, with "A" usually being 0-5 and then down to the "D" player that was supposed to be 20+.

We qualified for Nationals at Disney a few times and we played against other teams that had a "D" player that I'd be hesitant to play for money straight up. It was dirty business at that level but their Handicap qualifications were never questioned.
Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
My club is a particularly difficult course and for tournament play, from the tees I play, my handicap is adjusted UP somewhere around 2 strokes, basically two added to my GHIN index
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It's a tough assessment, especially when factoring in course ratings. I played 80% of my rounds at Bunker and when we played at tracks like Hazeltine, Interlachen and Minneapolis Country Club, my handicap became more of a figment of my imagination.

I could come within two yards guessing the distance to the pin from anywhere on the course at Bunker and knew the large greens like the back of my hand. Playing at the other courses, where I had very little local knowledge, it really raised my scores, and subsequently, my handicap. This gave me a huge advantage at the golf tourneys I played in at my home course that were handicap-adjusted events.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
There was an excellent piece in a magazine years back when LIV in its infancy about how this was a strategy to change the narrative from their human rights abuses, which involves far more than just the journalist’s murder.

They have a bad brand and are trying to change it systematically through sports.
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9/11
 

Slim Tubby said:
I've heard the same about algorithm changes but sandbagging will always be an issue. Most golfers play with the same group of guys and unless they hold each other accountable when logging their scores, there really is no way to completely police it.
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True. There's still some people (everywhere I'm sure) that everyone knows is "slightly" inflated but barring anything dramatic, it seems to be in check. I really thought there would be a lot more of that when I joined this club 5-6 years ago and I'm happily surprised that there really isn't anything I've seen in the tournaments.

Slim Tubby said:
I don't know the formula but your handicap will almost always be 3-5 strokes lower than your average over par round. Back when I was playing 5-6 rounds per week, I was a 2-handicap. I could shoot an occasional 70-72 but 80% of the time, I was scoring somewhere between 75-80.

I've played in past national events like the Oldsmobile Scramble that required four (4) A-D players qualified by USGA handicaps, with "A" usually being 0-5 and then down to the "D" player that was supposed to be 20+.
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I remember the Oldsmobile; I always wanted to play in that but never made it happen
Slim Tubby said:
It's a tough assessment, especially when factoring in course ratings. I played 80% of my rounds at Bunker and when we played at tracks like Hazeltine, Interlachen and Minneapolis Country Club, my handicap became more of a figment of my imagination.

I could come within two yards guessing the distance to the pin from anywhere on the course at Bunker and knew the large greens like the back of my hand. Playing at the other courses, where I had very little local knowledge, it really raised my scores, and subsequently, my handicap. This gave me a huge advantage at the golf tourneys I played in at my home course that were handicap-adjusted events.
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I tell people that I'm not sure you can really get a lot better playing the same course every day. Sure, you can be a pretty good player but you develop a sense of security, that's for sure. Your game needs to travel.

When people know you're a good player, I'll often hear "Oh, you don't want to play with me, I'm terrible". Bullshit. I require good company on the golf course, that's it. I don't care if you're shooting 125 or 75, just be good company, and keep things moving.

I had a buddy/client taking up the game several years ago and I told him repeatedly, you can be good, you can be bad, you can be whatever kind of player but you can't be SLOW. You can play plenty fast being shitty. You're a slow player and nobody will want to play with you.
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
True. There's still some people (everywhere I'm sure) that everyone knows is "slightly" inflated but barring anything dramatic, it seems to be in check. I really thought there would be a lot more of that when I joined this club 5-6 years ago and I'm happily surprised that there really isn't anything I've seen in the tournaments.



I remember the Oldsmobile; I always wanted to play in that but never made it happen


I tell people that I'm not sure you can really get a lot better playing the same course every day. Sure, you can be a pretty good player but you develop a sense of security, that's for sure. Your game needs to travel.

When people know you're a good player, I'll often hear "Oh, you don't want to play with me, I'm terrible". Bullshit. I require good company on the golf course, that's it. I don't care if you're shooting 125 or 75, just be good company, and keep things moving.

I had a buddy/client taking up the game several years ago and I told him repeatedly, you can be good, you can be bad, you can be whatever kind of player but you can't be SLOW. You can play plenty fast being shitty. You're a slow player and nobody will want to play with you.
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Slow play equals no play for me. I simply don't have the patience for aces and duffers alike that think playing 18 holes needs to be a 5.5 hour vacation from their wives. The group I normally play with prefer the first tee time off in the morning swing and enjoying brunch and Bloody Mary's in the clubhouse by 10:30am.

I always enjoyed playing with guys that were better than me. I could learn from them and had to be mentally involved through the entire round. The money games like "Captain" are better, too, especially with a 5-some of guys relatively close in skill level.
 

Slim Tubby said:
I always enjoyed playing with guys that were better than me. I could learn from them and had to be mentally involved through the entire round. The money games like "Captain" are better, too, especially with a 5-some of guys relatively close in skill level.
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Do you play with Kevin?
 


The future of LIV Golf appears to be in question.

The Financial Times’ Samuel Agini, Arash Massoudi and Sujeet Indap report Saudia Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) is on the verge of cutting its financial support for the breakaway league. The PIF has spent a reported $5 billion on the tour.

www.tsn.ca

Is LIV on the way out?

The future of LIV Golf appears to be in question. The Financial Times’ Samuel Agini, Arash Massoudi and Sujeet Indap report Saudia Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) is on the verge of cutting its financial support for the breakaway league. The PIF has spent a reported $5 billion on the tour.
www.tsn.ca www.tsn.ca
 


Slim Tubby said:
The future of LIV Golf appears to be in question.

The Financial Times’ Samuel Agini, Arash Massoudi and Sujeet Indap report Saudia Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) is on the verge of cutting its financial support for the breakaway league. The PIF has spent a reported $5 billion on the tour.

www.tsn.ca

Is LIV on the way out?

The future of LIV Golf appears to be in question. The Financial Times’ Samuel Agini, Arash Massoudi and Sujeet Indap report Saudia Arabia’s Public Investment Fund (PIF) is on the verge of cutting its financial support for the breakaway league. The PIF has spent a reported $5 billion on the tour.
www.tsn.ca www.tsn.ca
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My DeChambeau LIV Crushers hat will have a special place in my collection along with my Birmingham Stallions cap.
 

www.foxnews.com

LIV Golf's End May Be Imminent As Report Signals Saudi Arabia Is Preparing To Cut Off Funding

Reports suggest Saudi Arabia could end its financial backing of LIV Golf, putting the breakaway league’s future entirely in jeopardy.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

In late February, it was reported that LIV Golf's net spending per month averaged $100 million in 2024 and 2025. For the 2026 season, LIV's fifth, Saudi PIF Governor Yasir Al-Rumayyan reportedly approved a fresh $266.6 million capital injection into the circuit, bringing the Saudi PIF's cumulative investment in LIV Golf to $5.3 billion since 2021.

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The image in my head is Blutarsky at the Delta House....

$5.3 billion...down the toilet!!!
 

Hell yes!

I actually don't really drink much on the golf course, except maybe during fundraiser events where it doesn't matter (okay, I actually don't drink a lot period). But God bless the beverage cart girls and the work they do.

Small side note: I can recall two golf courses I have played that actually had dudes running the beverage cart. Talk about the worst business decision ever in the history of capitalism. Holy crap... One of them was in Superior, WI and I forget the other one.

 

Bob_Loblaw said:
How does doing something that pisses people off that brings way more attention to you "wash" your crimes? That doesn't make sense to me.

The difference is that I don't believe they did it to wash their crimes and I don't believe the people who are pretending that is why they don't like LIV. I believe the people don't like Saudi Arabia and their moral issue with Saudi Arabia will be enough for them to sacrifice the things they don't care about (sacrifice in theory only) but not enough for them to sacrifice the things they actually like.

I believe you think Saudis are evil.
I believe you think (and I agree) they killed Khassoggi.
I don't believe either of them is why you don't watch/like LIV.

**By "you", I mean the generic average person. I am not speaking for you specifically.
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Makes no sense to me either, but that doesn't mean that the Saudis feel the same way.

To me, there's no feel-good sports story in the universe that can push a cold-blooded murder under the rug. But maybe the Saudis thought they could use LIV to polish their image and distract from the ugliness of what they've done.

To be fair, it worked to some degree. In the end, Greg Norman and the other LIV golfers apparently decided, "Oh, what the hell. I'm taking the big, big money and I'll just forget about all the rest of it."
 

Ogie Ogilthorpe said:
Hell yes!

I actually don't really drink much on the golf course, except maybe during fundraiser events where it doesn't matter (okay, I actually don't drink a lot period). But God bless the beverage cart girls and the work they do.

Small side note: I can recall two golf courses I have played that actually had dudes running the beverage cart. Talk about the worst business decision ever in the history of capitalism. Holy crap... One of them was in Superior, WI and I forget the other one.

Click to expand...

I never knew this story, despite the fact that I'm a golfer and a Sinatra fan. From now on when the cart girl (and in my experience they are always cart girls) comes around I'll think of Old Blue Eyes and Dino.

Thanks for posting this, Ogie.
 

About as good an answer as one could expect from such a stupid question

 


Ope3 said:
At lots of Private clubs it's included (or discounted) as part of the Membership (as you have indicated as possible at yours), others one has to "opt out" to not be billed for GHIN #.

I have a GHIN#. Even for a $10 Nassau, my crew does not looks favorably on those without cards. Peer pressure.
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Speaking of golf/gambling, is there absolutely anything better than winning money on the golf course? I can barely think of anything. I had a great week/weekend last week at my club's big annual Member-Guest tournament and it got me thinking...

Damn, I remember taking $2 from my HS Chemistry and Shop teachers, or a measly $6 or $8 from a great player up in Reno one time, buddy/client, who was so sure he would win he didn't have any money on him when the game was over.

What is better than winning money on the golf course? I always remember the words of Paul Newman in "Color of Money" when he said "Money won is twice as sweet as money earned". Hell yes
 

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