Nolan Groves

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GopherWeatherGuy said:
PJ has been doing this the entire time he has been here. He has been in early on guys before they blew up like Bateman and Darius Taylor. Here are some other guys that didn't have any other P5 offers.

Jordan Howden
Cody Lindenberg
Mariano Sori-Marin
Thomas Rush
Chris Autman Bell
Maverick Baranowski

There are several others that only had 1 or a few P5 offers that were good to great players.

I remember when people argued on here that David Roddy wasn't a P5 player, that turned out alright for Niko. Kyan Evans best offer was CSU. Now he's at UNC. John Tonje wasn't even rated out of HS, and only had Omaha and Missouri Western State offers besides CSU. That worked out pretty well for Niko and eventually Gard.

You can't build an entire roster of under the radar recruits, which neither Niko or PJ does. But the good coaches know how to project players and find the right ones to develop within their system. Ben was incapable of doing that which is why he didn't even attempt to recruit Groves.
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This. So much this.

Both Ben and Richard treated their team like a factory with a production line. You examine the pieces as you go along. If a piece you had already looked at comes back around, then there is a prejudice that it can't have changed and had been put back in the production line process erroneously.

The key flaw is the prejudice towards a player, that you have seen and discounted, when that player is presented a second time. The gross assumption seems to be that the player being brought up again hasn't changed and you are being bothered to re-examine him. It misses the obvious reason, which is that others seem to believe the player has improved their skills and are worthy of another look.

That's hiw I see it YMMV
 

I'm amazed at the number of people defending Ben for not offering Groves earlier. Think of some of the guys that CBJ has offered....(Thiam Daniels, Ogele, Keinys, etc).....he's acknowledged bringing in guys just to be practice bodies (Wilson). Meanwhile, he has a guy averaging 34 points per game in the highest class of MN (literally within a 1/2 hour from his office) and he not only doesn't offer, but shows NO interest (not even as a PWO???). You don't think that if CBJ had offered when Yale did, that Groves would have already committed to Minnesota???

CBJ----you had ONE job. Glad that era is over.
 

cheeseheadgophfan said:
I'm amazed at the number of people defending Ben for not offering Groves earlier. Think of some of the guys that CBJ has offered....(Thiam Daniels, Ogele, Keinys, etc).....he's acknowledged bringing in guys just to be practice bodies (Wilson). Meanwhile, he has a guy averaging 34 points per game in the highest class of MN (literally within a 1/2 hour from his office) and he not only doesn't offer, but shows NO interest (not even as a PWO???). You don't think that if CBJ had offered when Yale did, that Groves would have already committed to Minnesota???

CBJ----you had ONE job. Glad that era is over.
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Small correction, 2nd highest class for Groves.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
My main issue with Ben not offering is just the insane number of scholarships wasted every year. Even if you thought he was not a P5 player, our team is always littered with these types. This isn't specific to Groves, but why he didn't take flyers on additional HS players every year baffled me. If they aren't good - move on from them.

I think we are seeing PJ do this a bit more in the post-portal world. It's almost like a free look at a player who will almost certainly accept.
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Yeah...it makes zero sense.
 

cheeseheadgophfan said:
I'm amazed at the number of people defending Ben for not offering Groves earlier. Think of some of the guys that CBJ has offered....(Thiam Daniels, Ogele, Keinys, etc).....he's acknowledged bringing in guys just to be practice bodies (Wilson). Meanwhile, he has a guy averaging 34 points per game in the highest class of MN (literally within a 1/2 hour from his office) and he not only doesn't offer, but shows NO interest (not even as a PWO???). You don't think that if CBJ had offered when Yale did, that Groves would have already committed to Minnesota???

CBJ----you had ONE job. Glad that era is over.
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I've been of a mind to cut Johnson some slack on this Groves matter, but you make a strong case that he should've been on him.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
PJ has been doing this the entire time he has been here. He has been in early on guys before they blew up like Bateman and Darius Taylor. Here are some other guys that didn't have any other P5 offers.

Jordan Howden
Cody Lindenberg
Mariano Sori-Marin
Thomas Rush
Chris Autman Bell
Maverick Baranowski

There are several others that only had 1 or a few P5 offers that were good to great players.

I remember when people argued on here that David Roddy wasn't a P5 player, that turned out alright for Niko. Kyan Evans best offer was CSU. Now he's at UNC. John Tonje wasn't even rated out of HS, and only had Omaha and Missouri Western State offers besides CSU. That worked out pretty well for Niko and eventually Gard.

You can't build an entire roster of under the radar recruits, which neither Niko or PJ does. But the good coaches know how to project players and find the right ones to develop within their system. Ben was incapable of doing that which is why he didn't even attempt to recruit Groves.
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You cannot compare football and basketball. Apples and oranges. There are 85 kids on scholarship in football, and 22 on the field at a time (offense and defense). 30+ kids get playing time regularly. You can find diamonds in the rough so much easier in football than in basketball. It's not even close. The transfer portal has changed basketball; mid-majors and D2 is the new minor leagues for high-majors. Undeniable that a kid like Groves could go lower level D1, play well for 2 years, and get a much better set of offers. The fact that he wants to leverage a great year and go straight to a high-major has nothing to do with the fact that he was under-recruited; he had an amazing year and grew his game and his physique.

The argument that Ben couldn't find and develop kids can be argued easily. He got Christie, Payne, transfers that were not heavily recruited but very good (Hawkins). Ben's downfall was not recruiting; it was an inability to consistently drive a program and consistency on the court.

Someone else on here posted that Wisconsin and TT were on Groves before we were; that's just not true. TT has a personal connection with him; and Wisconsin offered at the same time we did. The level of complaining about Ben's recruiting is something I just disagree with; everything else, clear that he was not a great fit. What Niko brings is a program; that's the proxy to the football program, a clear leader with a plan, a culture, and consistency in on-field strategy.
 

Juicer said:
You cannot compare football and basketball. Apples and oranges. There are 85 kids on scholarship in football, and 22 on the field at a time (offense and defense). 30+ kids get playing time regularly. You can find diamonds in the rough so much easier in football than in basketball. It's not even close. The transfer portal has changed basketball; mid-majors and D2 is the new minor leagues for high-majors. Undeniable that a kid like Groves could go lower level D1, play well for 2 years, and get a much better set of offers. The fact that he wants to leverage a great year and go straight to a high-major has nothing to do with the fact that he was under-recruited; he had an amazing year and grew his game and his physique.

The argument that Ben couldn't find and develop kids can be argued easily. He got Christie, Payne, transfers that were not heavily recruited but very good (Hawkins). Ben's downfall was not recruiting; it was an inability to consistently drive a program and consistency on the court.

Someone else on here posted that Wisconsin and TT were on Groves before we were; that's just not true. TT has a personal connection with him; and Wisconsin offered at the same time we did. The level of complaining about Ben's recruiting is something I just disagree with; everything else, clear that he was not a great fit. What Niko brings is a program; that's the proxy to the football program, a clear leader with a plan, a culture, and consistency in on-field strategy.
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I agree with your premise. I never try to bash basketball coaches for not offering all the prospects that I like. I like about 12-15 local players eevery year, it's easy for me to be "right" on guys when I get unlimited chances. Just because you occasionally get a 3 or 4 doesn't mean it's smart to hit on 17.

All of that said, these teams the last few years have been different. Every year we were sitting on 2-3 scholarships. We gave one to some people who could never help our program.

Typically, you're 100% right, there is a scarcity of scholarships in basketball. One of my gripes with Ben was that we had an abundance of scholarships remaining that we threw at guys like Jack Wilson, Danny Ogele, etc. The year we got Danny Ogele, we probably could have gotten Kendall Blue (I think those years match up).
 

Juicer said:
You cannot compare football and basketball. Apples and oranges. There are 85 kids on scholarship in football, and 22 on the field at a time (offense and defense). 30+ kids get playing time regularly. You can find diamonds in the rough so much easier in football than in basketball. It's not even close. The transfer portal has changed basketball; mid-majors and D2 is the new minor leagues for high-majors. Undeniable that a kid like Groves could go lower level D1, play well for 2 years, and get a much better set of offers. The fact that he wants to leverage a great year and go straight to a high-major has nothing to do with the fact that he was under-recruited; he had an amazing year and grew his game and his physique.

The argument that Ben couldn't find and develop kids can be argued easily. He got Christie, Payne, transfers that were not heavily recruited but very good (Hawkins). Ben's downfall was not recruiting; it was an inability to consistently drive a program and consistency on the court.

Someone else on here posted that Wisconsin and TT were on Groves before we were; that's just not true. TT has a personal connection with him; and Wisconsin offered at the same time we did. The level of complaining about Ben's recruiting is something I just disagree with; everything else, clear that he was not a great fit. What Niko brings is a program; that's the proxy to the football program, a clear leader with a plan, a culture, and consistency in on-field strategy.
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I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. As I've mentioned, Niko is a good example of being able to recruit and develop under the radar recruits and keep them at CSU. Why didn't they go down to lesser programs and play more instead?

Football has more players, but the point still stands. PJ rarely loses players to more money, yet many of them could leave for more money. There are also players that will sit for multiple years before playing any significant time, and could go elsewhere to play more earlier, but they don't.

The gripe with Ben is that he left scholarships unused, and Minnesota is filled with diamonds in the rough every year. Groves is exactly the type of player you fill one of those scholarships with. Ben never attempted to do this.

He also didn't have the worst record of any basketball coach in MN history because his teams were talented and he was just a bad coach. This team lacked talent every year. He was a poor recruiter. He shouldn't be applauded for needing 4 years to find a couple of B1G caliber basketball players.
 




Bob_Loblaw said:
I agree with your premise. I never try to bash basketball coaches for not offering all the prospects that I like. I like about 12-15 local players eevery year, it's easy for me to be "right" on guys when I get unlimited chances. Just because you occasionally get a 3 or 4 doesn't mean it's smart to hit on 17.

All of that said, these teams the last few years have been different. Every year we were sitting on 2-3 scholarships. We gave one to some people who could never help our program.

Typically, you're 100% right, there is a scarcity of scholarships in basketball. One of my gripes with Ben was that we had an abundance of scholarships remaining that we threw at guys like Jack Wilson, Danny Ogele, etc. The year we got Danny Ogele, we probably could have gotten Kendall Blue (I think those years match up).
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The gripe about wasting scholarships 11-13 is fair. And taking a swing on a handful of mid-major prospects who might pan out is also fair; certainly would have been nice to see and it didn't happen. But I still think this loses the context for the current state of college basketball. If you're Kendall Blue, and your option is the University of Minnesota where you can MAYBE crack the lineup intermittently, versus a place like St Thomas, where you can play right away and meaningful, unchallenged minutes for 2 years, then parlay that into a larger role at a high major of your choice (after you have also physically matured for 2 years), is a much better option for many, many kids who "fly under the radar". I have coached and been around AAU programs; this is exactly the conversation coaches and parents are having with their kids. It's just an entirely different environment than it was 3-4 years ago.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. As I've mentioned, Niko is a good example of being able to recruit and develop under the radar recruits and keep them at CSU. Why didn't they go down to lesser programs and play more instead?

Football has more players, but the point still stands. PJ rarely loses players to more money, yet many of them could leave for more money. There are also players that will sit for multiple years before playing any significant time, and could go elsewhere to play more earlier, but they don't.

The gripe with Ben is that he left scholarships unused, and Minnesota is filled with diamonds in the rough every year. Groves is exactly the type of player you fill one of those scholarships with. Ben never attempted to do this.

He also didn't have the worst record of any basketball coach in MN history because his teams were talented and he was just a bad coach. This team lacked talent every year. He was a poor recruiter. He shouldn't be applauded for needing 4 years to find a couple of B1G caliber basketball players.
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Cool to disagree for sure. But I struggle to name more than 3-4 football players in recent memory who truly could have "left for more money" and stayed (Taylor, Walley, Perich, Lindenburg?). And some have indeed made the switch (Daniels). But for those kids who could leave for more, Fleck has done his job and shown he can produce kids that play in the NFL. So if you have a shot at more money, but you think your chances at the next level are good by staying, your incentive to stay is much greater than the money you could get. You know the environment and the style and the opportunity; vs. going to Ohio State where they're trying to out-recruit you at every turn. Basketball is just so different; the numbers game means much fewer kids will make it to the next level, thereby increasing the incentive to move around for playing time/exposure/money.

And I disagree that the team lacked talent every year. 2 years ago they were good enough to make the tournament (Payne, Hawkins, Christie, Mitchell) and should have if they executed more consistently. The gripe I have with Ben is his players didn't get better outside of a couple of exceptions, and in fact several regressed due to lack of a coherent gameplan and execution. That's what Niko brings, or we hope he brings; consistency on the court that makes the players better.
 

Juicer said:
Ben's downfall was not recruiting; it was an inability to consistently drive a program and consistency on the court.
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There is a recently posted article charging that Ben failed to adapt to the NIL environment in the same way that Fleck did. The article also stated that more NIL money has been raised since Niko's hire than was raised all of last year. Unfortunately, the article is short on the specifics of Ben's conduct or lack thereof.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I've been of a mind to cut Johnson some slack on this Groves matter, but you make a strong case that he should've been on him.
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Perhaps but one could make a case for "failure to recruit sufficiently" against almost any coach. For example, why didn't Tubby offer Roseville's Mike Muscala who ended up playing at Bucknell followed by 11 years in the NBA?
 



TwistingMyMelon said:
There is a recently posted article charging that Ben failed to adapt to the NIL environment in the same way that Fleck did. The article also stated that more NIL money has been raised since Niko's hire than was raised all of last year. Unfortunately, the article is short on the specifics of Ben's conduct or lack thereof.
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www.minnesotasportsfan.com

Confirmed: Ben Johnson was the NIL Problem for Gophers Men's Basketball

The Minnesota Gophers had a major NIL problem under Ben Johnson, but who's fault was it? Now we know...
www.minnesotasportsfan.com www.minnesotasportsfan.com
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Perhaps but one could make a case for "failure to recruit sufficiently" against almost any coach. For example, why didn't Tubby offer Roseville's Mike Muscala who ended up playing at Bucknell followed by 11 years in the NBA?
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Did Tubby have a bunch of open scholarships? (Honest question)

The problem isn't missing that happens. Choices get made and they don't always pan out. But when you have open spots and money that isn't about making a poor choice, that is about either laziness or stupidity.
 
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Juicer said:
Cool to disagree for sure. But I struggle to name more than 3-4 football players in recent memory who truly could have "left for more money" and stayed (Taylor, Walley, Perich, Lindenburg?). And some have indeed made the switch (Daniels). But for those kids who could leave for more, Fleck has done his job and shown he can produce kids that play in the NFL. So if you have a shot at more money, but you think your chances at the next level are good by staying, your incentive to stay is much greater than the money you could get. You know the environment and the style and the opportunity; vs. going to Ohio State where they're trying to out-recruit you at every turn. Basketball is just so different; the numbers game means much fewer kids will make it to the next level, thereby increasing the incentive to move around for playing time/exposure/money.

And I disagree that the team lacked talent every year. 2 years ago they were good enough to make the tournament (Payne, Hawkins, Christie, Mitchell) and should have if they executed more consistently. The gripe I have with Ben is his players didn't get better outside of a couple of exceptions, and in fact several regressed due to lack of a coherent gameplan and execution. That's what Niko brings, or we hope he brings; consistency on the court that makes the players better.
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When your Pg is 5-11 170, Mitchell 6-1 maybe 180 and christy was 6-6 185, you are undersized at all 3 positions. This effects end of games, setting picks, defense. The mid major guys were vastly small. Christy was a great recruit and maybe would have been coming off the bench on a better team, until he could put on weight.

Excited that a few of the transfers Niko has have good size and quickness, not way undersized. Willis for a pg, Reynolds at Sg, and Omot at SF.
 

On a positive note from last year, having a 6-6 215 lb SF defensively was really nice (Femi Odukale). He could help down low, wasnt beat up on switches. When your frontcourt was Fox and Garcia, two finess types, he was important. It seems like we are always less physical than most big ten teams, minus 1 player like Payne most years.
 

Juicer said:
Cool to disagree for sure. But I struggle to name more than 3-4 football players in recent memory who truly could have "left for more money" and stayed (Taylor, Walley, Perich, Lindenburg?). And some have indeed made the switch (Daniels). But for those kids who could leave for more, Fleck has done his job and shown he can produce kids that play in the NFL. So if you have a shot at more money, but you think your chances at the next level are good by staying, your incentive to stay is much greater than the money you could get. You know the environment and the style and the opportunity; vs. going to Ohio State where they're trying to out-recruit you at every turn. Basketball is just so different; the numbers game means much fewer kids will make it to the next level, thereby increasing the incentive to move around for playing time/exposure/money.

And I disagree that the team lacked talent every year. 2 years ago they were good enough to make the tournament (Payne, Hawkins, Christie, Mitchell) and should have if they executed more consistently. The gripe I have with Ben is his players didn't get better outside of a couple of exceptions, and in fact several regressed due to lack of a coherent gameplan and execution. That's what Niko brings, or we hope he brings; consistency on the court that makes the players better.
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There's more than that for football, Ersery, Joyner, Smith, Brown, etc. Nubin could have last year. Mo or JMS the year before that. Daniels has proven less than a lot of guys that stayed.

The basketball team 2 years ago didn't even beat a ranked team. Payne played less at A&M this year than he did at Minnesota. Mitchell wouldn't start for pretty much every other B1G team.

Groves also isn't going to TT, Minnesota, or Wisconsin to start next year. He may have the opportunity crack the rotation, but your whole point is that players like Groves don't want to sit on the bench at these schools and want to play right away so they can move up later. Groves best opportunity to do that was to stay at Yale, yet now he's likely going to end up as a developmental player at a bigger school.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Perhaps but one could make a case for "failure to recruit sufficiently" against almost any coach. For example, why didn't Tubby offer Roseville's Mike Muscala who ended up playing at Bucknell followed by 11 years in the NBA?
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Muscala was admittedly a late bloomer, though, wasn't he? I mean, he was right next door in my neighboring school district, and did I even know he existed?
 



Bad Gopher said:
Muscala was admittedly a late bloomer, though, wasn't he? I mean, he was right next door in my neighboring school district, and did I even know he existed?
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Well, I haven't followed local high school basketball much over the years so I don't know but I see from his 247 recruiting profile that he did have 5 offers (Bucknell, Cal Poly, Santa Clara, North Dakota, and South Dakota). Possibly academic prestige (Bucknell) featured into the one he picked. He was good from the start there (All Freshman and Second Team All Patriot). He was first team for the remaining three years and scored over 2,000 points there.

As far as you not knowing about him, well, it's not your business to know but it is the University basketball staff's business.
 



dpodoll68 said:
I'm far from a supporter of Ben Johnson (in fact, I'm one of his biggest haters), but to blame him for not recruiting Groves is not only dumb, but also stupid. He didn't have a high-major offer until a few days ago. You can't simultaneously say the Gophers are settling for low-major talent and then complain when they don't offer low-major players.

I also saw a guy on Twitter comparing Groves to Perich. Yes, I'm sure Groves is a once-in-a-generation type player who immediately starts and is one of the best freshmen in the country.
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I heard he’s reasonable for the measles outbreak in Texas too!!!
 

kix4kix said:
We won't get him, I think TT wins out, but positive sign that we are pushing for it. NIko is hustling.

Tech spent 4M for one player. If I am a kid that won't crack either rotation, why would I come here for much less money?
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Civic pride!!!
 

Juicer said:
You cannot compare football and basketball. Apples and oranges. There are 85 kids on scholarship in football, and 22 on the field at a time (offense and defense). 30+ kids get playing time regularly. You can find diamonds in the rough so much easier in football than in basketball. It's not even close. The transfer portal has changed basketball; mid-majors and D2 is the new minor leagues for high-majors. Undeniable that a kid like Groves could go lower level D1, play well for 2 years, and get a much better set of offers. The fact that he wants to leverage a great year and go straight to a high-major has nothing to do with the fact that he was under-recruited; he had an amazing year and grew his game and his physique.

The argument that Ben couldn't find and develop kids can be argued easily. He got Christie, Payne, transfers that were not heavily recruited but very good (Hawkins). Ben's downfall was not recruiting; it was an inability to consistently drive a program and consistency on the court.

Someone else on here posted that Wisconsin and TT were on Groves before we were; that's just not true. TT has a personal connection with him; and Wisconsin offered at the same time we did. The level of complaining about Ben's recruiting is something I just disagree with; everything else, clear that he was not a great fit. What Niko brings is a program; that's the proxy to the football program, a clear leader with a plan, a culture, and consistency in on-field strategy.
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Plan your work, work your plan.
 

No inside information...I think there is a good chance he's a Gopher.
Groves #1 is smart. He was going to Yale.
#2. He's not going to be overwhelmed by the money Texas Tech is offering...he's from Orono.
#3. He can set his life/career up much better in the Twin Cities after college. He's closer to his family.
#4. Niko I'm guessing is going to pitch his ability to develop him and offer him some Big Ten/NIL money and maybe also he has a local NIL deal in his pocket for a local kid.
#5 Education is better at Minnesota.
Hope it happens.
 


60's Guy said:
No inside information...I think there is a good chance he's a Gopher.
Groves #1 is smart. He was going to Yale.
#2. He's not going to be overwhelmed by the money Texas Tech is offering...he's from Orono.
#3. He can set his life/career up much better in the Twin Cities after college. He's closer to his family.
#4. Niko I'm guessing is going to pitch his ability to develop him and offer him some Big Ten/NIL money and maybe also he has a local NIL deal in his pocket for a local kid.
#5 Education is better at Minnesota.
Hope it happens.
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Sid's alive!!!
 

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