Just....WHY?

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RememberMurray said:
I'm not out of sorts. I am fascinated by you, though.

Here we have a huge Gopher fan — with season tickets, no less — who claims Wisconsin is a more successful program, even as the Axe resides comfortably on Minnesota's campus for the second straight year and third in the last 5. That would make you a rare bird, I believe.

Are you picking Wisconsin to win the B1G West in 2023, since Wisconsin has a more successful program and a more successful coach?
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Not all Gopher fans are blindly going to anoint them as the champs every year, much to your chagrin. If you realized a few Gopher fans were realists, you would have a lower blood pressure. No one is denying how often the axe has resided on the west side of the river. Most of us just realize it has resided on the east side a lot more over the last 20 years. Asking if a successful program fires their coach in the middle of a season they still finished with a winning record and won a bowl game and I'd say yes they are. But then again, according to you, I would since I'm a Badger fan.
 

I'm A Maroon 2! said:
Not all Gopher fans are blindly going to anoint them as the champs every year, much to your chagrin. If you realized a few Gopher fans were realists, you would have a lower blood pressure. No one is denying how often the axe has resided on the west side of the river. Most of us just realize it has resided on the east side a lot more over the last 20 years. Asking if a successful program fires their coach in the middle of a season they still finished with a winning record and won a bowl game and I'd say yes they are. But then again, according to you, I would since I'm a Badger fan.
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Whoah, now. I haven't made any judgements about you at all. Settle down, big guy. Calm yourself.

It sounds as though we have quite a few Gopher fans who are convinced that the Wisconsin program is superior to our own, and that the new media darling Sconnie coach is "the bomb". Do the kids still use that expression?

The fact that so many of the maroon & gold faithful are openly envious of the Badger program is a bit of a surprise, to me at least. I had no idea.
 

GoldGoldGold said:
That's a reference to an old Chinese proverb... "Trails in the Sand" by Peter Draggin
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xuSWTPE.jpg


We're getting deep here in gopherhole!
 


UpAndUnder43 said:
You’re referencing stuff from 70 years ago. If you think the gophers are on par with the badgers in the lifetime of our players…good for you. You’re wrong.
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His word salad posts are all over the map, as usual. Uses national titles in one sentence, and then limits the head to head matchups to the last five years in another.
 


RememberMurray said:
— Minnesota and Wisconsin are 62-62-8 head-to-head all-time, and Minnesota has won 3 of the last 5, including the last two in a row. If you want to see The Axe in person, you'll have to cross the river and come to the land of tall buildings and indoor plumbing.
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The red scum also needed a 21-2 run to get the series back to sea level.
 

RememberMurray said:
I also "referenced stuff" from the most recent half-decade of the rivalry. My Gophers have the edge in that time frame as well. But, hey; feel free to choose the time frame that best suits your 'argument', if it makes you feel better.

One salient point: Didn't Wisconsin just fire their coach? Do "successful" teams usually fire their coach? If so, it seems odd to do so, what with all the "success" and all. Strange.

The contention here is whether or not your new Badger coach is really as good as you and the media seem to think he is. That remains to be seen. I would gently point out that his one stint as a head coach in the B1G was, well... a bit underwhelming, at least in my view. I hope that's not me, being unkind to your guy.
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Ease up, Murr. Getting borderline unfair.
 




3399 said:
My honest concern is that Mertz is gone. I think you could easily make the case that his play in the last two games was the biggest factor in the games. He makes a couple of very routine throws and it could have been a different game.
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We could probably say similar for a couple Leidner games vs Wisky. But you don't get to claim what-if wins....
 

PMWinSTP said:
His word salad posts are all over the map, as usual. Uses national titles in one sentence, and then limits the head to head matchups to the last five years in another.
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Incorrect.

I also included the all-time head-to-head record. That is all the games, the entire series. How is that 'limiting'?

It was one of the other guys who 'limited' the comparison to the 'lifetime of current players', or some such. An interesting time frame.
 
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Word said:
We could probably say similar for a couple Leidner games vs Wisky. But you don't get to claim what-if wins....
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Oh, they genuinely believe they can claim all sorts of stuff.
 

RememberMurray said:
Incorrect.

I also included the all-time head-to-head record. That is all the games, the entire series. How is that 'limiting'?

It was one of the other guys who 'limited' the comparison to the 'lifetime of current players', or some such. An interesting time frame.
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Do you think it matters what happened in 1940? Does that impact recruiting? To think the gophers have been better than the badgers over 20-30 years is wrong.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Do you think it matters what happened in 1940? Does that impact recruiting? To think the gophers have been better than the badgers over 20-30 years is wrong.
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I wonder what time frame most 16-17 year-olds really pay attention to sports? 5 years? 10 years max? I doubt they care what happened 20 or 30 years ago. Minnesota has won 3 of the last 5. Minnesota ranked at end of season 2 of the 5, Wisconsin once. Last 5 years highest final ranking - Minnesota is 8, Wisconsin is 11.
 


Word said:
I wonder what time frame most 16-17 year-olds really pay attention to sports? 5 years? 10 years max? I doubt they care what happened 20 or 30 years ago. Minnesota has won 3 of the last 5. Minnesota ranked at end of season 2 of the 5, Wisconsin once. Last 5 years highest final ranking - Minnesota is 8, Wisconsin is 11.
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Murray said the gophers have 7 national titles so we’re the better program. Those are irrelevant. I do think 5ish years is a good barometer but also sustained success of 20-30 years matters a ton for general thoughts as being considered a good program.

Agreed the last few years have favored the Gophers though I think wisconsin has a RWe’ll see what the new regime brings. Hop
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
Do you think it matters what happened in 1940? Does that impact recruiting? To think the gophers have been better than the badgers over 20-30 years is wrong.
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To be fair no one said that.
Last 3-5 years gophers better
Last 5-30 years Wisconsin way better
Last 30-50 years even
50+ years ago gophers way better
 

My take - the Badgers have had some solid teams, including some really good defensive teams. They have had some really good RB's. the one thing that - IMHO - has kept the Badgers from going further is QB play and the passing offense.

Fickell is seen as an offensive coach.

So you take a program that has lacked high-end offense and add an offensive coach, and I think it's fair for people to think that means the Badgers have - at least - a chance to be better.

and now, just to be a jerk:

Starting with the 2005 season - not ancient history, but within the lifetime of everyone on this board:

Seasons with 10 wins or more: Wisconsin 10 - Gophers 1
Seasons finishing in AP top 25: Wisconsin 12 - Gophers 1
Appearances in Rose Bowl: Wisconsin 4 - Gophers 0 (I will note Badgers went 0-4 in Rose Bowls)
Best Conf records: Wisconsin 1 9-win season; 5 7-win seasons -- Gophers 1 7-win season.

Yes, Gophers have done better head-to-head in recent seasons. but the Badgers have been a better team than the Gophers by almost any metric over the last 18 seasons.

I don't like it, but those are the numbers.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
My take - the Badgers have had some solid teams, including some really good defensive teams. They have had some really good RB's. the one thing that - IMHO - has kept the Badgers from going further is QB play and the passing offense.

Fickell is seen as an offensive coach.

So you take a program that has lacked high-end offense and add an offensive coach, and I think it's fair for people to think that means the Badgers have - at least - a chance to be better.

and now, just to be a jerk:

Starting with the 2005 season - not ancient history, but within the lifetime of everyone on this board:

Seasons with 10 wins or more: Wisconsin 10 - Gophers 1
Seasons finishing in AP top 25: Wisconsin 12 - Gophers 1
Appearances in Rose Bowl: Wisconsin 4 - Gophers 0 (I will note Badgers went 0-4 in Rose Bowls)
Best Conf records: Wisconsin 1 9-win season; 5 7-win seasons -- Gophers 1 7-win season.

Yes, Gophers have done better head-to-head in recent seasons. but the Badgers have been a better team than the Gophers by almost any metric over the last 18 seasons.

I don't like it, but those are the numbers.
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I can't unsee that.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon said:
Help me out here, I'm not picking up on the reference from the picture.
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PJ has drawn a line in the sand and said NO MORE! Wisconsin had a long streak going...PJ drew a line in the sand and said the AXE stays on the Minnesota side of the line...our streak keeping it that way is 2 and counting.
 

BTChamp said:
I can't unsee that.
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Lol! I can and did!

I’m a Gopher fan, and like most fans think about the positive. Yeah, I know Shalala and Alvarez turned Wisconsin around and they were better than us for many, ugh, many years. I also think they now have their best coach since Alvarez. But we have a great coaching staff too, with great players and facilities. Wisconsin is no longer better than us, but really not worse either. It’s going to be a fun season to watch.
 

WAGopher said:
Lol! I can and did!

I’m a Gopher fan, and like most fans think about the positive. Yeah, I know Shalala and Alvarez turned Wisconsin around and they were better than us for many, ugh, many years. I also think they now have their best coach since Alvarez. But we have a great coaching staff too, with great players and facilities. Wisconsin is no longer better than us, but really not worse either. It’s going to be a fun season to watch.
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Haha. I agree. I was going to and maybe should have added to my comment about the confidence of this coaching staff and sustainability. The driving question is cyborgs. Do we have enough?

But yes it has changed to basically equal (with a recent Gopher trend with the upper hand) compared to 10-15 years ago as it should be for the benefit of the rivalry. Although personally I obviously want domination for the U.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
My take - the Badgers have had some solid teams, including some really good defensive teams. They have had some really good RB's. the one thing that - IMHO - has kept the Badgers from going further is QB play and the passing offense.

Fickell is seen as an offensive coach.

So you take a program that has lacked high-end offense and add an offensive coach, and I think it's fair for people to think that means the Badgers have - at least - a chance to be better.

and now, just to be a jerk:

Starting with the 2005 season - not ancient history, but within the lifetime of everyone on this board:

Seasons with 10 wins or more: Wisconsin 10 - Gophers 1
Seasons finishing in AP top 25: Wisconsin 12 - Gophers 1
Appearances in Rose Bowl: Wisconsin 4 - Gophers 0 (I will note Badgers went 0-4 in Rose Bowls)
Best Conf records: Wisconsin 1 9-win season; 5 7-win seasons -- Gophers 1 7-win season.

Yes, Gophers have done better head-to-head in recent seasons. but the Badgers have been a better team than the Gophers by almost any metric over the last 18 seasons.

I don't like it, but those are the numbers.
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2005? Glen Mason was coaching Minnesota in 2005. The Gophers have had three different head coaches since then.

In 2005, Barry Alvarez was still coach at Wisconsin. The Badgers have had three different coaches since then.

In 2005, most players on the teams' rosters right now were very, very small children. Toddlers.

The issue right here, right now in 2023 will be Fleck vs. Fickell. And that's what this discussion is about.

Fleck clearly has the Badgers' number. He has gotten under the Badgers' thin skins. Another Badger coach (Chryst) bites the dust. The long Alvarez era — the Sconnie glory days — are now over.

We'll see if Fuke Lickell is a bonafide B1G head coach. Fleck has definitely proved that he is.
 
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Who is going to win the B1G West in 2023? That is all that matters.

Is Fuke Lickell the new Alvarez? Wisconsin desperately, DESPERATELY hopes so.

They fired their coach to try to stem the bleeding.
 

I guess the answer to "Why" is the most recent power index, possibly derived from looking at sparrow entrails, and the shape of clouds, has Wisconsin way, way above the rest of the soon-to-be gone West and slightly below the Buckeyes.
 

RememberMurray said:
Who is going to win the B1G West in 2023? That is all that matters.

Is Fuke Lickell the new Alvarez? Wisconsin desperately, DESPERATELY hopes so.

They fired their coach to try to stem the bleeding.
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It is indeed true that the WI AD did not like the product he saw on the field and the inability of the coach to admit the product was bad and was not willing to change.
Fans of every team with a new coach hope he is the one to lead them to the promised land.
MN fans hope to finally beat IA, keep the Axe, and win the West for the first and last time.
 

Plato said:
I guess the answer to "Why" is the most recent power index, possibly derived from looking at sparrow entrails, and the shape of clouds, has Wisconsin way, way above the rest of the soon-to-be gone West and slightly below the Buckeyes.
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The why has nothing to do with opinion. It’s a formula
 

Some guy said:
The why has nothing to do with opinion. It’s a formula
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Yes indeed, it is the same type of "formula" 247 uses to rate 17-year-old kids to four significant figures.
If you believe those power index numbers MN should not bother showing up next fall.
 

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