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MNSpaniel

MNSpaniel

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Was driving in the car and listening to KFAN yesterday. Fleck was doing a show with a live audience. I didn't hear the whole conversation but the question was asked about subbing or lack of subbing. I didn't agree with his answer and don't agree with his practice of playing starters very late in that game that is going to be lopsided pro/con.

His answer was simple. Paraphrasing: I'm afraid if I sub that we will lose. He said he was paranoid of losing even very late in the game. He said his defensive coaches will tell him that they are going to put a sub in and I will tell them ...no you are not. I'm just paranoid of losing ... that's the reason for how we sub.

I just don't agree with that. #1. You could get an injury to a starter. #2. The subs don't get game day experience. Practice is not the same as playing in a real game.
 

I will say in regards to the CU game, while we dominated thoroughly, it was still within reach well into the 4th quarter. I didn't hear the exact words so I can't fully weigh in, but I understand the thought process. Winning is always top priority, and we've seen enough heartbreaking losses to justify this thinking.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I will say in regards to the CU game, while we dominated thoroughly, it was still within reach well into the 4th quarter. I didn't hear the exact words so I can't fully weigh in, but I understand the thought process. Winning is always top priority, and we've seen enough heartbreaking losses to justify this thinking.
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I realize that but it was not just the CU game. It is every game that we are way ahead or way behind. I am glad the Gophers have been doing well. I just think you have to protect your starters and give the back-ups a chance to play. That should be part of the motivation of working hard in practice ... They might get a chance to play in a real game.
 

I am really hoping that we see some this week. Would be good to see a few subs on the OL and DL as well as other defensive spots. Maybe give Tanner a few series off if the game is out of reach.
 

Gophers1992 said:
and we've seen enough heartbreaking losses to justify this thinking.
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I disagree - not that I don't think we've suffered heartbreaking losses, we definitely have. But I don't think backups coming into the game are the reason why. Did substituting cause us to lose to Michigan in 2003? No, run up the gut and punt over and over caused us to lose. Can you point to a game that was lost because we pulled a starter too early? I can't.
 


tmvander said:
I am really hoping that we see some this week. Would be good to see a few subs on the OL and DL as well as other defensive spots. Maybe give Tanner a few series off if the game is out of reach.
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DL already rotates a lot of guys so don't think that position really applies when discussing the use of backups. O-Line as well seems to be incorporating a lot of different guys.

Really on offense the only position where a backup almost never plays is QB. On defense I guess maybe LB and DB don't rotate quite as much but you see a lot of different guys in over the course of the game.

Fleck definitely doesn't do the wholesale changes where he will replace almost all his starters at the same time. But it also isn't like he stays with the same 11 on both sides for the entire game either.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I will say in regards to the CU game, while we dominated thoroughly, it was still within reach well into the 4th quarter. I didn't hear the exact words so I can't fully weigh in, but I understand the thought process. Winning is always top priority, and we've seen enough heartbreaking losses to justify this thinking.
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Agreed. I went back and watched the 60-minute replay on Fubo. The Gophs were doing their best to let CO back into the game in the 3rd. They blow the clock at the end of the half (with the help of refs), drive down the field and miss a field goal to start the 3rd, then do 3-and-out the next drive. The Gophs got lucky with CO providing 2 turnovers in that run (1 being forced).
 


Fleck's fear showed on Saturday when the game was late in the fourth and every player on the defense was a backup except we had our entire starting secondary.
 



noamfromm said:
Fleck's fear showed on Saturday when the game was late in the fourth and every player on the defense was a backup except we had our entire starting secondary.
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That probably shows he has more faith in his front 7 backups than his back 4 backups.....
 

I too can find things to complain about after the most dominant defensive performance in 4 years. Not 4 years for the Gophers. 4 years for all teams across FBS.

I thought the pre-game meal was too salty (led to cramps, almost cost us the game), I thought the safeties were either early or late on many plays, the wide receivers blocked but sometimes didn't pancake guys (almost cost us the game) and I think Tanner Morgan showed great leadership but it wasn't elite. All in all, lucky to have snuck out of there with a W. Colorado strings together 3 or 4 TD drives and we lose.
 

Bring up only 20 isn’t that big. Up 20 in the early 4th quarter and you are 2-3 plays away from being in a dogfight.


fleck doesn’t put in subs much because his style doesn’t lead him to bring up 5 possessions much.
 

MplsGopher_fan said:
I disagree - not that I don't think we've suffered heartbreaking losses, we definitely have. But I don't think backups coming into the game are the reason why. Did substituting cause us to lose to Michigan in 2003? No, run up the gut and punt over and over caused us to lose. Can you point to a game that was lost because we pulled a starter too early? I can't.
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No I can't, I'm just saying it's easy to look after the fact and say this. There's always some injury risk keeping starters in, but I understand wanting to be certain about winning.
 



MNSpaniel said:
Was driving in the car and listening to KFAN yesterday. Fleck was doing a show with a live audience. I didn't hear the whole conversation but the question was asked about subbing or lack of subbing. I didn't agree with his answer and don't agree with his practice of playing starters very late in that game that is going to be lopsided pro/con.

His answer was simple. Paraphrasing: I'm afraid if I sub that we will lose. He said he was paranoid of losing even very late in the game. He said his defensive coaches will tell him that they are going to put a sub in and I will tell them ...no you are not. I'm just paranoid of losing ... that's the reason for how we sub.

I just don't agree with that. #1. You could get an injury to a starter. #2. The subs don't get game day experience. Practice is not the same as playing in a real game.
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I question whether Fleck would make those rather direct comments. That is not coach speak .
 

noamfromm said:
Fleck's fear showed on Saturday when the game was late in the fourth and every player on the defense was a backup except we had our entire starting secondary.
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Fleck also said on the FAN that he wanted to get the shutout. Forget the reasons why but I liked it.
 

Clicked on this thread thinking we finally got Seantrel Henderson
 

Wally said:
Fleck also said on the FAN that he wanted to get the shutout. Forget the reasons why but I liked it.
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I did appreciate it -- I would not have kept hollering as loud as I had if there wasn't a shutout in the balance. I did not care about the team the last time it had happened.
 

I heard it and he also mentioned respect and it's really up to the losing team to call off the dogs, is what I gathered from it. Add in that they only take about 60 players on the road, so they don't have a bunch of back-ups sitting around. Fleck also wanted that shutout. He loves First's.

Home games are treated completely different in a similar situation.
 

fmlizard said:
Clicked on this thread thinking we finally got Seantrel Henderson
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Side note: he was the worst coworker I ever had. He worked at a restaurant with me for a few shifts until an article in the paper came about him having a job and then we never saw him again.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I heard it and he also mentioned respect and it's really up to the losing team to call off the dogs, is what I gathered from it. Add in that they only take about 60 players on the road, so they don't have a bunch of back-ups sitting around. Fleck also wanted that shutout. He loves First's.

Home games are treated completely different in a similar situation.
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Hadn't thought of the road travel limitation angle!
 

MNSpaniel said:
I realize that but it was not just the CU game. It is every game that we are way ahead or way behind. I am glad the Gophers have been doing well. I just think you have to protect your starters and give the back-ups a chance to play. That should be part of the motivation of working hard in practice ... They might get a chance to play in a real game.
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There is plenty of motivation for working hard in practice. Move up on the depth chart and be ready when called. Injury is a big part of the game. Also for most positions we play two deep through rotation. Fleck plays one QB and usually one set of receivers barring injury. He is willing to rotate anywhere else if we have adequate quality.

If you look at participation report after each game you will see a lot of names you might not have noticed on the field, including many young guys on STs.
 

Some guy said:
Bring up only 20 isn’t that big. Up 20 in the early 4th quarter and you are 2-3 plays away from being in a dogfight.


fleck doesn’t put in subs much because his style doesn’t lead him to bring up 5 possessions much.
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But in fact he plays subs all game long through rotation. We play 8 D line guys, 8 or 9 O line due to different packages and rotation. We played six LBs at CU and at least six DBs. We don't yet have quality depth at safety. We played four RBs and at least four WRs. We always play several TEs.

He won't sub the QB. That's it. Anybody who can help the team will find the field. Most first and second year guys are not yet ready.
 

Gophers1992 said:
No I can't, I'm just saying it's easy to look after the fact and say this. There's always some injury risk keeping starters in, but I understand wanting to be certain about winning.
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We are only talking about a QB and WR. He doesn't just leave starters in. We are playing two deep on both sides of the ball and sometimes three except for QB, WRs, and safeties (out of necessity).
 

Gophers1992 said:
No I can't, I'm just saying it's easy to look after the fact and say this. There's always some injury risk keeping starters in, but I understand wanting to be certain about winning.
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Actually, I just thought of an answer to my own question. 2019 Penn State, that Shannon Brooks fumble could have cost us the game. If we keep going on offense, maybe we don't have such a close outcome.
 

I understand it. It's a byproduct of Fleck/Tressel ball. You don't gain insurmountable leads unless the team is THAT bad. Plus, while our defense certainly showed a dominating performance in the CO game, the criticisms with the Miami OH game are still valid. If the defense wasn't as slow to start in the beginning of the season, maybe that fear of losing would be less.
 

It's a catch-22. Fleck plays a conservative style.
Which means the Gophers rarely blow out an opponent, keeping the score closer.
and because the score is close, Fleck says he doesn't want to put in the deep subs.

So, in essence, Fleck - or his coaching philosophy - is the reason why he doesn't like to put in subs.

And speaking of Subs, there used to be a place called "Froggie's" on Lake Street. they made a darn nice sub.
 

I think people overestimate the value of experience in a blowout game. A guy playing 2 series at the end of a game well out of reach, playing next to backups, likely against other backups, in a pressure less situation isn't going to make much of a difference in terms of their future performance. It's better than nothing, sure, but them playing against our 1's in practice is probably more helpful. The only real benefit to me is reducing the possibility of injuries to starters.
Also we play like 8-10 DL, 4-5 LBs and 5-7 DBs just in regular action on. The only places where we don't play a lot of guys right now is QB and TE. So if a starter gets hurt his backup has probably been playing a lot anyway.
 

Gophers1992 said:
I will say in regards to the CU game, while we dominated thoroughly, it was still within reach well into the 4th quarter. I didn't hear the exact words so I can't fully weigh in, but I understand the thought process. Winning is always top priority, and we've seen enough heartbreaking losses to justify this thinking.
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Screen Shot 2021-09-22 at 11.59.01 AM.png
Here is the drive I would have liked to see Tanner out of the game and get some snaps for Zack or one of our younger QBs. Score is 23-0, 8 minutes left. Colorado put in their freshman QB, ran the ball on 1st down then had two short passes and a punt. They were essentially giving up. And we ran Tanner out there again just to hand off the ball to "Bucko" Irving and Ky Thomas. I know it's a quibble but it's the same behavior that led to Mo being overused etc.
 

I get it. Like pointed out it really is just the QB and some WRs. Since they do rotate the 2-deeps on the lines already, the only thing I would say is maybe give the 2s more time at the end of games like Saturday. QB switch could have happened for the second to last possession with the regulars still in as it was a series of had-offs.
 

eker0016 said:
View attachment 14497
Here is the drive I would have liked to see Tanner out of the game and get some snaps for Zack or one of our younger QBs. Score is 23-0, 8 minutes left. Colorado put in their freshman QB, ran the ball on 1st down then had two short passes and a punt. They were essentially giving up. And we ran Tanner out there again just to hand off the ball to "Bucko" Irving and Ky Thomas. I know it's a quibble but it's the same behavior that led to Mo being overused etc.
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At the same time what's the benefit to putting ZA in there to hand the ball off a few times? Tanner's injury risk is pretty low in that scenario and I'm not sure that experience does much for ZA.
 

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