Shama: Big Ten Realignment May Come Next Week

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Unregistered User said:
Does anyone think that there will be complaints if it does come down to a straight East/West split? Who would the complainers be?
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I'd say some in the media and folks from OSU/Michigan who are cool with PSU being in another division. I doubt anyone else would care much. Everyone in the West would probably be the happiest as it results in ok distances for road trips, protected rivalries, etc.
 

Unregistered User said:
Does anyone think that there will be complaints if it does come down to a straight East/West split? Who would the complainers be?
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Off the top of my head, the minor complaints would be:

1. Nebraska wants to play Mich, OSU, and PSU (and vice versa).
2. Illinois has two trophy games against 'eastern' teams (Purdue and OSU)
3. Minnesota has two trophy games against 'eastern' teams (Mich and PSU)
4. Missouri and Iowa St. will not be happy that they are not in either division ;)

Adding a ninth conference game would soften the blow of most of the above issues.

And major complaints could be:
1. The East might be dominant (but I doubt it)
2. The West is not as marketable, nationally at least
3. Purdue and Indiana will have a brutal schedule every year. (Think Baltimore Orioles)
 

MrGopher said:
Off the top of my head, the minor complaints would be:

1. Nebraska wants to play Mich, OSU, and PSU (and vice versa).
2. Illinois has two trophy games against 'eastern' teams (Purdue and OSU)
3. Minnesota has two trophy games against 'eastern' teams (Mich and PSU)
4. Missouri and Iowa St. will not be happy that they are not in either division ;)

Adding a ninth conference game would soften the blow of most of the above issues.

And major complaints could be:
1. The East might be dominant (but I doubt it)
2. The West is not as marketable, nationally at least
3. Purdue and Indiana will have a brutal schedule every year. (Think Baltimore Orioles)
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My point is that most of the "issues" that people are wringing their hands over will work themselves out over time. And as far as cross division rivalries, they have already said those can be protected rivalries. I just don't see a lot of complaining outside of a small conclave of B10 un-named officials who continue to clamor about "competitive balance". And once the alignment is in place, I really doubt that anyone would hear word 1 from the B10 offices because none of them would dare open their mouths at that time for fear of making the office look foolish.

So, to keep beating that dead horse, East/West and just get it done. Work out the rivalries and everyone is good to go.
 

Unregistered User said:
Does anyone think that there will be complaints if it does come down to a straight East/West split? Who would the complainers be?

Whatever happened to the results in this survey? Wasn't Skalmo going to post this on a forum for each University and aggregate the results?
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I browsed the osu boards and they seem to be in favor of psu going west.
 




MrGopher said:
And major complaints could be:
1. The East might be dominant (but I doubt it)
2. The West is not as marketable, nationally at least
3. Purdue and Indiana will have a brutal schedule every year. (Think Baltimore Orioles)
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The East could be dominant, but so could the west. If it is just one team (OSU) dominanting, it is impossible to balance that out.

The West is highly marketable, you just have to market it.

It's not so clear that having to play OSU. Michigan and Penn State is really all that more brutal than playing Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin. But moving Penn State to the West CLEARLY makes our schedule brutal. We would play at LEAST 4 of the top 6 each year, possibly all 6. In some years, Purdue and Indiana would play only 2 of the top 6, and at worst, play 5.
 

Schnoodler said:
I think they'll have alot of say if it appears they're being unfailry treated and being forced to do something cleary bad for them to preserve the OSU/Michigan game. So in a sense they have Veto Power over this matter. The default solution will be geographical, any other alignment will require a unanimous decision. No one team, expecially one as prominent as PSU is going to take the brunt of such a decision. That's not to say there won't be politics and enticements to sway a vote or two.

If they break up the three, Michigan is coming this way. I don't think once it becomes obvious that the three will be in the same division and Michigan is looking at not seeing a comference title game or a big bowl for a few more years they'll think long and hard about moving.
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Lets not be foolish. Michigan may have even a higher probability of having a Breakout season in 2011 than the Gophers. I just do not think we can assume Michigan will stay down very long at all.
 

Speaking of Michigan being the team that comes West, Michigan and MSU are a package deal IMO. If Michigan is coming West, so is MSU. The only way that might work is to simply swap the Michigan schools and the Illinois schools. This avoids breaking up Illinis and NW as in the PSU/Illinois swap and avoids the problem of Michigan not playing MSU. It also still leaves at least some semblance of geography intact.

It also has not been definately decided that these divisons won't be used for basketball. Getting MSU to the West helps balance out OSU, Purdue and Illinois being in the East (and Indiana if they ever right the ship.) Swapping Illinois for PSU would make using the divisions for basketball scheduling a joke (PSU, Iowa, Nebraska and NW all being in the same division cannot happen, though it would be fun for Bucky and the Gophers I guess)
 



howeda7 said:
Speaking of Michigan being the team that comes West, Michigan and MSU are a package deal IMO. If Michigan is coming West, so is MSU. The only way that might work is to simply swap the Michigan schools and the Illinois schools. This avoids breaking up Illinis and NW as in the PSU/Illinois swap and avoids the problem of Michigan not playing MSU. It also still leaves at least some semblance of geography intact.

It also has not been definately decided that these divisons won't be used for basketball. Getting MSU to the West helps balance out OSU, Purdue and Illinois being in the East (and Indiana if they ever right the ship.) Swapping Illinois for PSU would make using the divisions for basketball scheduling a joke (PSU, Iowa, Nebraska and NW all being in the same division cannot happen, though it would be fun for Bucky and the Gophers I guess)
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Well, I think it's pretty definite that the divisions are football only. However, if they did decide to use divisions in other sports and they don't divide strictly by geography, I would assume that each sport would have a different divisional alignment. Michigan State is the premiere Big Ten basketball school, but in football, they're average. Penn State is one of the top football programs, but one of the worst basketball programs. You would need to completely re-think the divisions for each sport.
 

Stargenes said:
Lets not be foolish. Michigan may have even a higher probability of having a Breakout season in 2011 than the Gophers. I just do not think we can assume Michigan will stay down very long at all.
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Perhaps not. But must we then assume that Iowa and Wisconsin will not be able to remain good teams? The justification for moving Penn States depends on making that assumption.
 

MrGopher said:
I seriously doubt that PSU would give even a hint that they would leave. Being in the wrong division is way better than being in any other conference, or being independent. PSU knows that. Nobody would take that threat seriously.
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I doubt they would leave. But they would be able to wield considerable power with that threat. The question would be who would flinch first in this game of chicken? Would the other 11 Big Ten Schools consider it so overwhelmingly important to move Penn State to the West that they could call Penn State's bluff?
 

2727Gopher said:
Well, I think it's pretty definite that the divisions are football only. However, if they did decide to use divisions in other sports and they don't divide strictly by geography, I would assume that each sport would have a different divisional alignment. Michigan State is the premiere Big Ten basketball school, but in football, they're average. Penn State is one of the top football programs, but one of the worst basketball programs. You would need to completely re-think the divisions for each sport.
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That's why Michigan and MSU to the West would make sense for both sports. An East/West alignment with Mich/MSU swapped for Illinois/NW would be very balanced for basketball and decent for football as well, though the West would be stronger.

As for whether they'd use the divisons for other sports, maybe, maybe not. Several other conferences use thier divisions for football and basketball but not the other sports. Rest assured they would not have different divisions for each sport in any case. Frankly, outside of football and basketball, the other sports are not signficant enough for them to bother. They would either use the divisons that are already in place or none at all.
 



Swapping MSU-Michigan for Illinois-Northwestern still leaves the problem of OSU-Michigan. The other schools will kowtow to OSU and Michigan. I would prefer not to have protected cross-divisional rivals, it unbalances things too much.

That still has the problem of making the west brutal, with 4 of the top 6 teams. There's nothing you can do to balance out one dominant team: You can only lose to OSU once. (not counting the conference championship game, for nitpickers.)
 

Maybe we need to have a division for OSU and Michigan. and another one for the other ten teams.
 

howeda7 said:
That's why Michigan and MSU to the West would make sense for both sports. An East/West alignment with Mich/MSU swapped for Illinois/NW would be very balanced for basketball and decent for football as well, though the West would be stronger.

As for whether they'd use the divisons for other sports, maybe, maybe not. Several other conferences use thier divisions for football and basketball but not the other sports. Rest assured they would not have different divisions for each sport in any case. Frankly, outside of football and basketball, the other sports are not signficant enough for them to bother. They would either use the divisons that are already in place or none at all.
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Well, as far as I'm concerned, if they ignore geography when creating divisions (which would be for "competitive balance") and then keep the same division format for any other sport, they'll all be proven to be frauds. There's no reason why you couldn't have different divisions in different sports, and "competitive balance" would require you to do that.
 

I think Maturi already said that they probably won't have the same alignment in all sports. They like the 12 team format in basketball because of the tournaments.

How much does football rivalries extend to the other sports? Does it at all, if it does I think you'd want consistency across programs. If not I'd go geographic in all others, just from a cost stand point.
 

If it is a 2/3 majority, I can promise that the 6 schools in the "west" would vote against moving Penn State to the West. (except maybe the school moving to the weaker "east")
 

I think that's it in a nutshell Rose, it's only really good for three schools that Penn State be the one to go. Three more are probably on the fence, and six more don't want it. Plus if you consider what might be a little hidden animosity about OSU and Michigan thinking they're prima donnas, maybe the votes arent' going their way when the more logical solutions for everyone doesn't support that vote.

i really think in the end, the only vote that wouldn't generate strong opposition will be the east west split. With maybe one exchange along the imaginary line. An even that probably voluntary. i could see a school wanting the bigger revenues of being in the east, and opting to cross that way, as much as i could see one wanting to go to the west to get away from the big three.
 

Good point, we'll get the East-West split if the western schools insist upon it. Iowa and Wisconsin should certainly vote against it, as the idea that an E/W split is unbalances really is a slap in their faces. I doubt Nebraska wants any part of a top-heavy West. Illinois and Northwestern should object. Minnesota though, I don't know what Maturi will do, even though an E/W split is best for Minnesota.

Plus, I can't imagine that it is too appealing for Penn State, it puts them into a top-heavy division and makes travel much more expensive and time consuming for their fans.

With an East-West split, Indiana and Purdue get Penn State as a regular game. Penn State is a bigger draw then Northwestern. OTOH, Penn State is a tougher opponent.

Can those that favor putting PSU to the West get 8 votes for it?
 

Rosemountian said:
If it is a 2/3 majority, I can promise that the 6 schools in the "west" would vote against moving Penn State to the West. (except maybe the school moving to the weaker "east")
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Unless Nebraska wants more annual matchups against the Big 3. Nebraska still looks at itself as a national power and might not care about making the division "tougher".
 

RodentRampage said:
Swapping MSU-Michigan for Illinois-Northwestern still leaves the problem of OSU-Michigan. The other schools will kowtow to OSU and Michigan. I would prefer not to have protected cross-divisional rivals, it unbalances things too much.

That still has the problem of making the west brutal, with 4 of the top 6 teams. There's nothing you can do to balance out one dominant team: You can only lose to OSU once. (not counting the conference championship game, for nitpickers.)
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I think a protected rival in the other division is a virtual lock at this point, regardless of which alignment is chosen. And frankly, that's not a bad thing for MN. The West is going to be tougher top to bottom regardless and a nice protected rivalry with Indiana may be a welcome break. East/West with the Michigan and Illinois schools swapped would mean all 3 trophy games are in the division. OSU-Michigan, PSU-Nebraska, Wisonsin-NW and Illinois-Iowa could be protected rivalaries with MSU-Purdue and MN-IN as the left-overs. I see no huge issue with it other then the loss of the great 'Land Grant' trophy for MSU-PSU.
 

howeda7 said:
I think a protected rival in the other division is a virtual lock at this point, regardless of which alignment is chosen. And frankly, that's not a bad thing for MN. The West is going to be tougher top to bottom regardless and a nice protected rivalry with Indiana may be a welcome break. East/West with the Michigan and Illinois schools swapped would mean all 3 trophy games are in the division. OSU-Michigan, PSU-Nebraska, Wisonsin-NW and Illinois-Iowa could be protected rivalaries with MSU-Purdue and MN-IN as the left-overs. I see no huge issue with it other then the loss of the great 'Land Grant' trophy for MSU-PSU.
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Perhaps, but protected rivalries are a mistake. In any case, OSU and Michigan are virtual locks to be in the same division. Michigan and OSU want to play each other each year in the last game of the season. They are afraid that if they then meet in the conference championship game, that the rematch the very next week will be a letdown. And of course, OSU and Michigan fans are convinced that if they were in seperate divisions, that they would meet in the conference championship game every year.

If the Big Ten does go to protected rivalries, than it shows that the concern over competitive balance is a sham. Protected rivalries disrupt competitive balance. And besides, the divisons should mean something. Protected rivalries undermine the importance of the divisions.
 

RodentRampage said:
Perhaps, but protected rivalries are a mistake. In any case, OSU and Michigan are virtual locks to be in the same division. Michigan and OSU want to play each other each year in the last game of the season. They are afraid that if they then meet in the conference championship game, that the rematch the very next week will be a letdown. And of course, OSU and Michigan fans are convinced that if they were in seperate divisions, that they would meet in the conference championship game every year.

If the Big Ten does go to protected rivalries, than it shows that the concern over competitive balance is a sham. Protected rivalries disrupt competitive balance. And besides, the divisons should mean something. Protected rivalries undermine the importance of the divisions.
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Maybe we're thinking too hard. I think the NCAA is working up to a 13 game season if a conference has a championship game. So with two divisions of 6 and 6, that's five divisional games and three games with the other division. So you're looking at playin each team at least every other year.

I say no to protected rivalries for this reason.
 

Unregistered User said:
Does anyone think that there will be complaints if it does come down to a straight East/West split? Who would the complainers be?

Whatever happened to the results in this survey? Wasn't Skalmo going to post this on a forum for each University and aggregate the results?
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Here's the link to Skalmo's response.

I lost interest and quit. Sorry.

The GopherHole was excellent about responding to my inquiries but Iowa and Ohio State fans sucked. I got maybe two responses on each of those boards and I figured if they didn't have much interest in responding the survey wouldn't be very good.

I learned that Minnesota fans care far more about the Little Brown Jug than I would have expected. They want to protect that rivalry almost as much as Iowa and Wisconsin.
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Here's the link to the Badger responses to Skalmo's OP.
 

Okay. Let's say it's straight East/West split. And each team gets one cross-division rival, just like the SEC.

What are the Pairings? Obviously most of us would prefer to play Michigan. So...

Minn-Mich, Wisc-MSU, Iowa-PSU, Neb-OSU, Ill-Ind, NU-Pur???

Might not be the best way, but if I ruled the universe, that's how i'd do it.
 

Nebraska will not get a vote in deciding the divisions unless they wait until July 2011 to decide divisions which obviously won't occur. Nebraska will be aloud to voice ther opinion at the upcoming meetings but will not be aloud to cast any votes.
 

Ohio state
Nebraska
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Northwestern

Michigan
Michigan State
Penn State
Illinois
Purdue
Indiana

I say we change the rivalry weekend to the. Last weekend in October (Halloween).
 

Nebraska
Minnesota
Iowa
Wisconsin

Michigan
Michigan State
Nortwestern
Illinois

Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Indiana

3 divisions (lets think outside the box?)
Division winners plus 1 wild card play semifinal games in Detroit and Indianapolis. Winners meet for championship in Chicago.

3 divisions look pretty even to me.
 

GoGophers2005 said:
Nebraska
Minnesota
Iowa
Wisconsin

Michigan
Michigan State
Nortwestern
Illinois

Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Indiana

3 divisions (lets think outside the box?)
Division winners plus 1 wild card play semifinal games in Detroit and Indianapolis. Winners meet for championship in Chicago.

3 divisions look pretty even to me.
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If there ever will be a playoff to decide the bigten champion, it will come when there are 16 teams. And probably only then if most other conferences had the same system. There are just too many opportunities to lose, for those who have national champion dreams. It may happen, but i hope not anytime soon.

Think:
1. Minn, wisc, Iowa, Neb
2. Ill, NU, Pur, ND
3. Mich, MSU, OSU, Ind
4. PSU, Pitt, Syr, Rut

I hope it never comes to that, but some are predicting super-conferences are not far off.
 

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