Marcus CZAR and the Christmas Day Massacre

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MaroonShaft said:
Fuck I thought I did Czar this time m. I think it autocorrected or something. I’ll edit the post or delete
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I have a feeling you'll have numerous other times to dedicate a thread to him - he is just insane - he keeps this up, he might even up as my favorite Gopher guard of all time.
 

I still go back to the 2018-19 season he had to sit out because he was seemingly the only transfer in college basketball who didn’t receive a waiver that year. How much better would that team have been with Carr joining Murphy, Coffey, Oturu, McBrayer and Kalscheur? Could they have won the Big Ten? They won a tournament game without him...I bet they would’ve gone deeper, like Sweet 16 or even Elite 8, with his scoring skills, which is something that team sorely lacked until Amir found another gear at the end of the season. Man that team would’ve been fun to watch. Oh what could have been, the official motto of Gopher Sports.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
I still go back to the 2018-19 season he had to sit out because he was seemingly the only transfer in college basketball who didn’t receive a waiver that year. How much better would that team have been with Carr joining Murphy, Coffey, Oturu, McBrayer and Kalscheur? Could they have won the Big Ten? They won a tournament game without him...I bet they would’ve gone deeper, like Sweet 16 or even Elite 8, with his scoring skills, which is something that team sorely lacked until Amir found another gear at the end of the season. Man that team would’ve been fun to watch. Oh what could have been, the official motto of Gopher Sports.
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Not only that, but also what if Curry was at full health and what if McBrayer wasnt limited due to injury and what if Murphy couldve played that last game. Can go down this road for the previous two seasons as well. Every team is affected by losing players from time to time, just seems like the gophers have had more loss in this area than their fair share.
 
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golf said:
Not only that, but also what if Curry was at full health and what if McBrayer wasnt limited due to injury and what if Murphy couldve played that last game. Can go down this road for the previous two seasons as well. Every team is affected by losing players from time to time, just seems like the gophers have had more loss in this area than their fair share.
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The thing that still pisses me off is there was really no cogent rationale from the NCAA on why his waiver request was denied, when they were handing them out like Halloween candy to everyone else. Was Pitt that vindictive n trying to stop him from playing right away? I recall GH threads that season that noted him absolutely tearing things up in practices, and lamented not having his skill sets available to the team. Turns out that chatter was spot on.
 

WindyCityGopher said:
I still go back to the 2018-19 season he had to sit out because he was seemingly the only transfer in college basketball who didn’t receive a waiver that year. How much better would that team have been with Carr joining Murphy, Coffey, Oturu, McBrayer and Kalscheur? Could they have won the Big Ten? They won a tournament game without him...I bet they would’ve gone deeper, like Sweet 16 or even Elite 8, with his scoring skills, which is something that team sorely lacked until Amir found another gear at the end of the season. Man that team would’ve been fun to watch. Oh what could have been, the official motto of Gopher Sports.
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Yup. That was a bullshit call to not let him play. On the other hand....if Carr had played two years ago....would he be on this team right now?
 

golf said:
Not only that, but also what if Curry was at full health and what if McBrayer wasnt limited due to injury and what if Murphy couldve played that last game. Can go down this road for the previous two seasons as well. Every team is affected by losing players from time to time, just seems like the gophers have had more loss in this area than their fair share.
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What if Pitino could actually coach?
 

USAF said:
What if Pitino could actually coach?
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Your views on Pitino are pretty clear. I'm not going to change your mind. But it has been interesting to see the development by some of his players in the latter half of his tenure. Oturu in year two was the best frontcourt player we have had here in a pretty long time. Carr this year is the best point guard we have had here in a pretty long time. Others like Murphy/Mason/Coffey/McBrayer took pretty nice strides in their time here. If you (general) don't want to give Pitino credit for the development of those players, then it seems inconsistent to pound away at him for players that didn't improve significantly. He and his coaching staff have either done a nice job with some of these guys or player development is solely the responsibility of the player.
 



I've said this all along but I'll say it again.

We hired RP at age 30. Even with the pedigree he has, unless you're Brad Stevens, you're going to be learning alot on the job. I rip RP as much as anyone and I still don't know if he actually is a good coach or not.

However, the iowa game was truly on of the first times I've seen Pitino use a particular tactic to win a big game with the Garza double teams. Garza still scored but iowa looked lost at times.

I still believe iowa is best team in B1G and will win the regular season.

RP is learning. Hes 37 yrs old. Not apologizing for him but unless we want to buy him out, hes here for remainers of this and likely next yr.
 

Thomasthetank said:
I've said this all along but I'll say it again.

We hired RP at age 30. Even with the pedigree he has, unless you're Brad Stevens, you're going to be learning alot on the job. I rip RP as much as anyone and I still don't know if he actually is a good coach or not.

However, the iowa game was truly on of the first times I've seen Pitino use a particular tactic to win a big game with the Garza double teams. Garza still scored but iowa looked lost at times.

I still believe iowa is best team in B1G and will win the regular season.

RP is learning. Hes 37 yrs old. Not apologizing for him but unless we want to buy him out, hes here for remainers of this and likely next yr.
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His first year or two he certainly had cost us a couple games with in game management... he’s definitely improved in that area. I’ve actually thought he was better at player development all along as compared to Tubby. Thinking back to Sampson, Iverson, etc. Comparing them to Carr, Coffey, Murphy... I certainly agree with your overall point though!
 

Christmas Day Massacre? More like, Christmas Day Miracle!

No way we win that game without BJ going 8 for 9 from 3! No Way!

No way we get to overtime without him going 4 for 5 from 3 in regulation.

I'm just as giddy as the rest of you that we beat Iowa (sucks). But, you guys are killing me with crediting the defense to holding the other team to 83 points. We got outshot, outrebounded, out free throwed and still somehow managed to win the game because our PF came off the bench to go 8 for 9 from 3 point range! Oh, and our all-world guard hit two dagger threes in the last minute to make the game go into overtime.

I call that lucky and plucky. We played hard to get to the point where luck could give us the opportunity to win. Nothing more. Don't expect to see 8 for 9 again any time soon. Unless of course you think BJ should be starting at shooting guard.

Hey, that might not be such a bad idea!
 

Otis said:
Christmas Day Massacre? More like, Christmas Day Miracle!

No way we win that game without BJ going 8 for 9 from 3! No Way!

No way we get to overtime without him going 4 for 5 from 3 in regulation.

I'm just as giddy as the rest of you that we beat Iowa (sucks). But, you guys are killing me with crediting the defense to holding the other team to 83 points. We got outshot, outrebounded, out free throwed and still somehow managed to win the game because our PF came off the bench to go 8 for 9 from 3 point range! Oh, and our all-world guard hit two dagger threes in the last minute to make the game go into overtime.

I call that lucky and plucky. We played hard to get to the point where luck could give us the opportunity to win. Nothing more. Don't expect to see 8 for 9 again any time soon. Unless of course you think BJ should be starting at shooting guard.

Hey, that might not be such a bad idea!
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Also dont win if Toussaint even makes one of those free throws at the end. Wouldnt be surprised if we benefitted from iowa being overconfident as well, that mistake wont be repeated on the 10th.

I guess i prefer to look it at as BJ went 4/5 in regulation. That's not going to be repeated on the 10th but could easily be replaced by Gach/Gabe playing better. Would also note we won despite rebding poorly. Hopefully we rebd better next meeting with the Hawkeyes. So we didnt play a perfect game.

In OT, technically we still win if Johnson goes 2/4 instead of 4/4.

On their side, Garza scored 32 but they would maybe say played subpar? Weiskamp played poorly but Frederick was on fire. Bohanon kind of played like he has all season. McCaffrey made a 3 so probably a career game for him.

Probably some is me looking at it thru maroon colored glasses as well. Just seems like we have been on the losing side of games like this so many times where we somehow find a way to lose that I think we deserve a little good karma.
 
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golfing18now said:
Your views on Pitino are pretty clear. I'm not going to change your mind. But it has been interesting to see the development by some of his players in the latter half of his tenure. Oturu in year two was the best frontcourt player we have had here in a pretty long time. Carr this year is the best point guard we have had here in a pretty long time. Others like Murphy/Mason/Coffey/McBrayer took pretty nice strides in their time here. If you (general) don't want to give Pitino credit for the development of those players, then it seems inconsistent to pound away at him for players that didn't improve significantly. He and his coaching staff have either done a nice job with some of these guys or player development is solely the responsibility of the player.
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Although I'm not Pitino's biggest fan, I do give him credit for things he's done well. Player development isn't one of them, though. I judge player development by looking at the lesser players, not the best ones. Great players are like great students. They'll be good regardless of the mentor. Oturu, Murphy, Coffey, and Carr were very good when they arrived here and they had the personal drive and understanding of how they could improve themselves.

McBrayer had a jump from his freshman year (when he was mostly terrible) to his soph year but didn't improve after that. Mason improved but probably not as much as he should have. Joey King marginally improved. There are a number of players who actually regressed under Pitino (for example: Eliason, Mathieu, Morris, Washington). Finally, it's an absolute disgrace that players like Michael Hurt and Bakary Konate weren't any better than they were after playing four years. Earlier in his soph year, Bakary was actually developing a decent hook shot and some offensive moves but they completely disappeared after that. When you have teams where more than half the roster contributes little or nothing, that's not good player development. For lesser players, you have to figure out what they can do, try to develop those things, and put them in a position to succeed. Pitino has been mostly a failure at that.
 

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would have had a very merry Christmas.
 

Thomasthetank said:
I've said this all along but I'll say it again.

We hired RP at age 30. Even with the pedigree he has, unless you're Brad Stevens, you're going to be learning alot on the job. I rip RP as much as anyone and I still don't know if he actually is a good coach or not.

However, the iowa game was truly on of the first times I've seen Pitino use a particular tactic to win a big game with the Garza double teams. Garza still scored but iowa looked lost at times.

I still believe iowa is best team in B1G and will win the regular season.

RP is learning. Hes 37 yrs old. Not apologizing for him but unless we want to buy him out, hes here for remainers of this and likely next yr.
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Great post and I agree basically with all of it.

Also, he did win an NIT Championship while setting the school record for wins in a season and was named B10 Coach of the Year.

Maybe this is the year he takes a step as a coach to the next level in his profession. I also love the length and athleticism on our roster.
 

Plato said:
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would have had a very merry Christmas.
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Yup!

I'm a lifelong Minnesotan, but the whole Minnesota fan mentality cracks me up, to this day.

Other teams and their fans are giddy with joy after a huge win over a highly-ranked cross-border rival.
But Minnesotans have to make sure everybody knows all the possible ways it could have, maybe even should have, been a loss for their own team!

"Sure, we won... but just barely. And we'll probably lose the next game."

It's in our Nordic DNA to be dour and gloomy, I guess.
 
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Gopher_In_NYC said:
Great post and I agree basically with all of it.

Also, he did win an NIT Championship while setting the school record for wins in a season and was named B10 Coach of the Year.

Maybe this is the year he takes a step as a coach to the next level in his profession. I also love the length and athleticism on our roster.
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We have been emphatically informed that the NIT championship and COY award are both meaningless. You must have missed the memo. :)
 

golf said:
We have been emphatically informed that the NIT championship and COY award are both meaningless. You must have missed the memo. :)
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LOL - But, I was at the NIT Championship semi-final at MSG and I could've sworn we played and won!

I'll put it in my file cabinet with the Final Four that never happened!
 

Otis said:
Christmas Day Massacre? More like, Christmas Day Miracle!

No way we win that game without BJ going 8 for 9 from 3! No Way!

No way we get to overtime without him going 4 for 5 from 3 in regulation.

I'm just as giddy as the rest of you that we beat Iowa (sucks). But, you guys are killing me with crediting the defense to holding the other team to 83 points. We got outshot, outrebounded, out free throwed and still somehow managed to win the game because our PF came off the bench to go 8 for 9 from 3 point range! Oh, and our all-world guard hit two dagger threes in the last minute to make the game go into overtime.

I call that lucky and plucky. We played hard to get to the point where luck could give us the opportunity to win. Nothing more. Don't expect to see 8 for 9 again any time soon. Unless of course you think BJ should be starting at shooting guard.

Hey, that might not be such a bad idea!
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To pile on with @golf, the Gophers went 12 for 36 from 3 in regulation. That is absolutely a repeatable performance. Gabe, Ihnen, and Mashburn went a combined 1 for 15 from 3. You might say that BJ won’t shoot like that again, but I would counter that Gabe, Ihnen, and Mash don’t shoot that poorly again this year. The Gophers didn’t win the game by getting hot from 3. They won it with a good game plan, decent shooting, and Marcus Carr coming up big when it mattered most.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
LOL - But, I was at the NIT Championship semi-final at MSG and I could've sworn we played and won!

I'll put it in my file cabinet with the Final Four that never happened!
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No, you need to remember that the only thing that matters is big ten coaching record. I have actually been thinking of changing my account name to "big ten record". Maybe that would be a good idea for you as you seem to get easily sidetracked away from what is the only important reference point. :)
 

golf said:
No, you need to remember that the only thing that matters is big ten coaching record. I have actually been thinking of changing my account name to "big ten record". Maybe that would be a good idea for you as you seem to get easily sidetracked away from what is the only important reference point. :)
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Not the only thing. One piece of the whole body of work. I am not the guy that makes fun of others for whatever standard is good enough or impressive enough for them. Each fan can decide for themselves. To me if you have one NCAA win in 8 years, one 4th place conference finish, no conference tourney title, a terrible conference record . All of that or any one of those means your not a elite coach, when you are it is revealed in a big way early on. Some care a great deal about the NIT. I do not care about the NIT but do not mock others that do. The conference coach of the year, lets make that clear is not the National Coach of the year. That came after a year he solely created but did a good job. It is not like he won a title of any meaning. Curious, how many coaches in the conference do you think are better. Just opinion. With all that said, i support him again, made my donation, cheer for the team to win. That overall body of work, that poorly ranked conference defense year after year, actual results fall far short of good. That is my opinion. Each fan decides what standards are great, good, average or terrible.
 

matt said:
To pile on with @golf, the Gophers went 12 for 36 from 3 in regulation. That is absolutely a repeatable performance. Gabe, Ihnen, and Mashburn went a combined 1 for 15 from 3. You might say that BJ won’t shoot like that again, but I would counter that Gabe, Ihnen, and Mash don’t shoot that poorly again this year. The Gophers didn’t win the game by getting hot from 3. They won it with a good game plan, decent shooting, and Marcus Carr coming up big when it mattered most.
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I just spat out my coffee! (Sorry for making your thought poor grammatically.)

I guarantee Gabe shoots that poorly again. Maybe his next 15 shots.
 

cjbfbp said:
Although I'm not Pitino's biggest fan, I do give him credit for things he's done well. Player development isn't one of them, though. I judge player development by looking at the lesser players, not the best ones. Great players are like great students. They'll be good regardless of the mentor. Oturu, Murphy, Coffey, and Carr were very good when they arrived here and they had the personal drive and understanding of how they could improve themselves.

McBrayer had a jump from his freshman year (when he was mostly terrible) to his soph year but didn't improve after that. Mason improved but probably not as much as he should have. Joey King marginally improved. There are a number of players who actually regressed under Pitino (for example: Eliason, Mathieu, Morris, Washington). Finally, it's an absolute disgrace that players like Michael Hurt and Bakary Konate weren't any better than they were after playing four years. Earlier in his soph year, Bakary was actually developing a decent hook shot and some offensive moves but they completely disappeared after that. When you have teams where more than half the roster contributes little or nothing, that's not good player development. For lesser players, you have to figure out what they can do, try to develop those things, and put them in a position to succeed. Pitino has been mostly a failure at that.
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It is probably impossible to prove one way or another. I would probably argue coaching had a bigger impact on some of those top end guys than you do but your opinion is certainly defensible. At one point Murphy was often referred to as "low motor Murphy" in his first year or two but that certainly changed by the time he graduated. Mason outperformed many of the higher rated players from his class that Pitino missed on the recruiting trail.

You make an interesting point on the lesser players. Many of the players you cite were from pretty early on during his tenure -- Eliason, Matthieu, Morris, and Konate. Washington was a complete whiff but likely on the player too in that particular case. But Pitino hasn't had many guys that looked like projects but became quite serviceable by the time they graduated, Miles Tarver types. Players that soak up four years of scholarship with little return (Diedhiou/Hurt/Konate) put so much added pressure on getting your other scholarships filled productively and/or lead to real depth concerns.
 

golf said:
No, you need to remember that the only thing that matters is big ten coaching record. I have actually been thinking of changing my account name to "big ten record". Maybe that would be a good idea for you as you seem to get easily sidetracked away from what is the only important reference point. :)
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Yes, let's all puff our chest out at Richard Pitino's record against the Arkansas-Little Rock's of his preseason schedules! It's what every true Gopher fan hangs his hat on! We went 7-2 against nobody!!!
 

USAF said:
Yes, let's all puff our chest out at Richard Pitino's record against the Arkansas-Little Rock's of his preseason schedules! It's what every true Gopher fan hangs his hat on! We went 7-2 against nobody!!!
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Doesn't sound like the last three wins has softened your stance on Pitino, eh?
 

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