Gopher basketball starting over

[UpAndUnder43]

This is long and a bit rambling. But there is a point to it.

I support every Gopher coach and team no matter what. Win, lose or tie. I want them to win in every thing. I spend a disproportionate amount of my time and money on Gopher athletics. I didn’t even attend the school because they wouldn’t let me in. I wear Gopher clothes Every. Single. Day. My 4 year old nephew called me out for it. The amount of time I spend on Gopherhole is disgusting. If I ever won Powerball I’d write a big enough check to have my gopherscore be #1 and have buildings named after me.

I’m not sure why people want coaches fired. Celebrating a loss because it may get a coach fired? I understand losing sucks. And I’m not saying Pitino should be the coach. But losing is never good. It doesn’t help the program now or in the long term , regardless of what people think. Getting a new coach is not a good thing. It means your team was bad enough that the AD decided to make a change. Or else something bad enough occurred off the court (academic scandal, paying players, etc) that the AD decided to make a change.

Since Clem left, we’ve had 3 full time head coaches (not interim) and things have not got better. Not sure why we assume the next coach is the guy. My dream for Gopher basketball is to not say things like “year 4” because someone is here long enough where we just talk about them. Duke doesn’t say “year 40 under coach k” and Gonzaga doesn’t say “Year 16” under Few” We won’t get long term, sustained success without a long term coach.

Is Pitino the answer? That is debatable. But based on our track record since Clem was shown the door, I doubt the next guy is either I will support Richard until he isn’t our coach. And I hope he wins enough games to keep his job and has a great year next year and every year after that. Just like I do for all of Gopher athletics. Because the best way to get long term sustained success is to have a long term coach. Very few programs can do it switching coaches every few years (I can’t think of any)

 

[bizzle22]

There seems to be some confusion about a few things:

1. That keeping a coach long term means they will have success. This is incorrect. It's the opposite. Coaches get to keep their job for the long term because they are successful. If Pitino were 67-37 in the B1G instead of 37-67 in the B1G then you wouldn't even have to post this. Heck, same thing if he were just 52-52 in the B1G.

2. There is no reason to believe that another coach couldn't come in and be just as successful. It's not like Pitino has some track record of success that would lead us to believe that greater things are coming. There is no reason to be scared of the unknown when the present isn't very good to begin with.

3. A new coach could turn this around quickly. Any talk of a 3 year rebuilding process is nonsense. Basketball turnarounds are a lot quicker than football. Nearly 50% of our roster will be different going into the 2020-21 season regardless of who the coach is.

 

[jovs]

This is long and a bit rambling. But there is a point to it.

I support every Gopher coach and team no matter what. Win, lose or tie. I want them to win in every thing. I spend a disproportionate amount of my time and money on Gopher athletics. I didn’t even attend the school because they wouldn’t let me in. I wear Gopher clothes Every. Single. Day. My 4 year old nephew called me out for it. The amount of time I spend on Gopherhole is disgusting. If I ever won Powerball I’d write a big enough check to have my gopherscore be #1 and have buildings named after me.

I’m not sure why people want coaches fired. Celebrating a loss because it may get a coach fired? I understand losing sucks. And I’m not saying Pitino should be the coach. But losing is never good. It doesn’t help the program now or in the long term , regardless of what people think. Getting a new coach is not a good thing. It means your team was bad enough that the AD decided to make a change. Or else something bad enough occurred off the court (academic scandal, paying players, etc) that the AD decided to make a change.

Since Clem left, we’ve had 3 full time head coaches (not interim) and things have not got better. Not sure why we assume the next coach is the guy. My dream for Gopher basketball is to not say things like “year 4” because someone is here long enough where we just talk about them. Duke doesn’t say “year 40 under coach k” and Gonzaga doesn’t say “Year 16” under Few” We won’t get long term, sustained success without a long term coach.

Is Pitino the answer? That is debatable. But based on our track record since Clem was shown the door, I doubt the next guy is either I will support Richard until he isn’t our coach. And I hope he wins enough games to keep his job and has a great year next year and every year after that. Just like I do for all of Gopher athletics. Because the best way to get long term sustained success is to have a long term coach. Very few programs can do it switching coaches every few years (I can’t think of any)

Monson wasn't a Big Ten caliber coach, Tubby pretty much checked out by his third season, not a very good sample size in my mind, get a good coach and they can win.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

Monson wasn't a Big Ten caliber coach, Tubby pretty much checked out by his third season, not a very good sample size in my mind, get a good coach and they can win.

Its a 20 year sample size. And getting a good coach is hard or else everyone would do it.

 

[builtbadgers]

So do you keep one that is not good ?

 

[GibsonSG]

Is Pitino the answer? That is debatable.

Has any coach of a high major program had as poor of a conference record as Pitino after 6 seasons and then went on to become very successful at that school in the following years? Serious question. If you can find one, it has to be an extreme rarity as I assume most coaches with his record were sh!t-canned.

 

[bga1]

This is long and a bit rambling. But there is a point to it.

I support every Gopher coach and team no matter what. Win, lose or tie. I want them to win in every thing. I spend a disproportionate amount of my time and money on Gopher athletics. I didn’t even attend the school because they wouldn’t let me in. I wear Gopher clothes Every. Single. Day. My 4 year old nephew called me out for it. The amount of time I spend on Gopherhole is disgusting. If I ever won Powerball I’d write a big enough check to have my gopherscore be #1 and have buildings named after me.

I’m not sure why people want coaches fired. Celebrating a loss because it may get a coach fired? I understand losing sucks. And I’m not saying Pitino should be the coach. But losing is never good. It doesn’t help the program now or in the long term , regardless of what people think. Getting a new coach is not a good thing. It means your team was bad enough that the AD decided to make a change. Or else something bad enough occurred off the court (academic scandal, paying players, etc) that the AD decided to make a change.

Since Clem left, we’ve had 3 full time head coaches (not interim) and things have not got better. Not sure why we assume the next coach is the guy. My dream for Gopher basketball is to not say things like “year 4” because someone is here long enough where we just talk about them. Duke doesn’t say “year 40 under coach k” and Gonzaga doesn’t say “Year 16” under Few” We won’t get long term, sustained success without a long term coach.

Is Pitino the answer? That is debatable. But based on our track record since Clem was shown the door, I doubt the next guy is either I will support Richard until he isn’t our coach. And I hope he wins enough games to keep his job and has a great year next year and every year after that. Just like I do for all of Gopher athletics. Because the best way to get long term sustained success is to have a long term coach. Very few programs can do it switching coaches every few years (I can’t think of any)

Good post.

The worst thing that happened to us was hiring a great coach like Tubby Smith and him not getting it done. Now we are the only place that Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith couldn't win at. Not once did he get above .500. Minnesota ended Musselman's college coaching career, it ended Dutcher's coaching career, it ended Haskin's coaching career. Monson dropped to a lower level. Tubby had to go to a basement team. It's not easy here. The best coaches we ever had took high risk players to try to get it done and got burned with sanctions or scandals.

This coach was supposed to be the long term play that gave us stability. Those calling for him to be fired are not wrong, but the next coach may not be the answer either. I HOPE HE IS! Pitino is wishing he had taken that Bama job right about now...if it was ever offered.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

So do you keep one that is not good ?

I never said that. I think people who root for a coach or team to lose so they can start over are misguided. Losing to Nebraska doesn’t help the current staff or the current players or the next staff (if/when there is one). Doesn’t help recruiting. Doesn’t help the fan base.

 

[EG#9]

This is long and a bit rambling. But there is a point to it.

I support every Gopher coach and team no matter what. Win, lose or tie. I want them to win in every thing. I spend a disproportionate amount of my time and money on Gopher athletics. I didn’t even attend the school because they wouldn’t let me in. I wear Gopher clothes Every. Single. Day. My 4 year old nephew called me out for it. The amount of time I spend on Gopherhole is disgusting. If I ever won Powerball I’d write a big enough check to have my gopherscore be #1 and have buildings named after me.

I’m not sure why people want coaches fired. Celebrating a loss because it may get a coach fired? I understand losing sucks. And I’m not saying Pitino should be the coach. But losing is never good. It doesn’t help the program now or in the long term , regardless of what people think. Getting a new coach is not a good thing. It means your team was bad enough that the AD decided to make a change. Or else something bad enough occurred off the court (academic scandal, paying players, etc) that the AD decided to make a change.

Since Clem left, we’ve had 3 full time head coaches (not interim) and things have not got better. Not sure why we assume the next coach is the guy. My dream for Gopher basketball is to not say things like “year 4” because someone is here long enough where we just talk about them. Duke doesn’t say “year 40 under coach k” and Gonzaga doesn’t say “Year 16” under Few” We won’t get long term, sustained success without a long term coach.

Is Pitino the answer? That is debatable. But based on our track record since Clem was shown the door, I doubt the next guy is either I will support Richard until he isn’t our coach. And I hope he wins enough games to keep his job and has a great year next year and every year after that. Just like I do for all of Gopher athletics. Because the best way to get long term sustained success is to have a long term coach. Very few programs can do it switching coaches every few years (I can’t think of any)

This seems like a losing attitude to me. Tubby Smith was here 6 years. He went to 3 NCAA tournaments. He had his own share of bad luck. He coached/recruited under the longest dry spell of in state talent of my lifetime. He still underachieved. He lost a lot of games like the one tonight where you are just scratching your head at how the Gophers didn't have the game put away with 5 minutes left. Dan Monson coached for 8 seasons (7 B1G seasoson) he was widely criticized for being the worst Gopher coach of all time by many GopherHolers who have (or in some cases had) been around since the 50's or 60's. Monson had a 9-7 an 8-8, and a 10-6 conference season among his 7 conference seasons. His overall conference record was horrific (44-68) but he was one failure to get the ball across half court in the last game of the season from having two tournament teams in his first 6 seasons. Pitino is now 37-67 in conference play. Someone posted that since he took over the Gophers conference record is only better than Penn State and Rutgers. This is absolutely rock bottom for this program under any historical measure.

It doesn't take long to turn around a basketball program. TCU had not been better than 4-14 in conference play in their 4 years in the Big 12 before Jamie Dixon took over. Their last appearance in the NIT! (never mind the NCAA) had occurred in 2004-2005. In Dixon's first year the Horned Frogs won the NIT. In his second they finished 9-9 in conference play and made the NCAA tournament. It's hard to find a worse situation than TCU and Dixon did that in two years.

Fred Hoiberg took over an Iowa State basketball program that had gone 4-12 for 3 consecutive seasons in Big 12 play. This is a program that has historically never gotten the top Iowa talent (and there is very little of that to begin with). Fred went 3-13 in conference play his first year. After that? 12-6, 11-7,11-7, 12-6. He had a sweet 16 in that span and won a game in the tournament two other times.

The Gophers have given every coach they've hired post Clem plenty of time. Every coach has gotten at least 6 seasons despite none of them achieving anything of significance to extend their grace period to develop a consistent program. You are free to have any opinion you want, but I'd challenge you to find two examples of coaches who had conference records as poor as Pitino's over a 6 year time frame at any power 5/high major school who turned in to winners after that point.

 

[SPEGOPHER]

Appreciate the sentiment. As a diehard gopher fan who is too young to remember the Final Four, the most successful gopher football and basketball seasons I’ve witnessed were probably Claeys Holiday Bowl year and Tubby’s Round of 32 year. While that’s depressing to think about, it has formed my standard for whether I think the coach should return: Can he deliver a special season? Can he get us to the Rose Bowl or can he make a run in March? Because at the end of the day, that’s what I want. Consistent average to slightly above average seasons are obviously preferable to dumpster fire teams, but who really cares if we go 7-5 or win the NIT (or even get bounced in the first round)? Give me one Rose Bowl and 9 sub .500 seasons to 10 Car Care bowls.

On the positive side, I think Fleck has the capability to do it. Not saying he will, but he has a system in place that makes it plausible the stars could align for a special season. Unfortunately, this year has convinced me that Pitino cannot meet that threshold. Even if we sneak into the tourney somehow, our lack of offensive identity in year 6 of the Pitino tenure makes it hard to believe he could ever get us past the first weekend. I wouldn’t be shocked or infuriated if we keep him another year (gotta keep Oturo and Gabe around) but I’ve lost hope in his ceiling for the program and think it’s time to part ways.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

A lot of people seem to be stuck on me thinking that Pitino is the answer or that he should be given a lifetime extension. I never once said that. I’m saying the grass isn’t always greener and to be happy your team lost a game is really odd to me. You want to root for a winner but want them to lose first?

And I have a full time job. I’m not going to scour the Internet to see if coaches have been successful after a run like Pitinos. What a waste of my life.

 

[howeda7]

Its a 20 year sample size. And getting a good coach is hard or else everyone would do it.

37-67. 1 NCAA bid in 6 years. It's not hard to get a coach who can far exceed that.

 

[Golden Deuce]

There seems to be some confusion about a few things:

1. That keeping a coach long term means they will have success. This is incorrect. It's the opposite. Coaches get to keep their job for the long term because they are successful. If Pitino were 67-37 in the B1G instead of 37-67 in the B1G then you wouldn't even have to post this. Heck, same thing if he were just 52-52 in the B1G.

2. There is no reason to believe that another coach couldn't come in and be just as successful. It's not like Pitino has some track record of success that would lead us to believe that greater things are coming. There is no reason to be scared of the unknown when the present isn't very good to begin with.

3. A new coach could turn this around quickly. Any talk of a 3 year rebuilding process is nonsense. Basketball turnarounds are a lot quicker than football. Nearly 50% of our roster will be different going into the 2020-21 season regardless of who the coach is.

I need to stop watching games. sucks with pitino, sucks with out him,

What if Gabe & Outuro transferred if pitino gets fired?

2 possessions of the half court trap/2/3 zone? how about 8-10 possessions of this Nebraska looked confused.
in a 1 point game these things matter.

dont play Jarvis in a game that will be close.

He's 1-2 steps behind and should have red shirted.

Havent won in 7 years at Nebraska? how is this possible?????????????

I expect more.

sign me up for Ryan Saunders when the Twolves fire him.

 

[GuyFawkes]

Hoiberg and saunders aren't coming here, so give up on that dream people, they are both staying in the NBA in a role of some sort.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

37-67. 1 NCAA bid in 6 years. It's not hard to get a coach who can far exceed that.

I agree it shouldn’t be hard but a lot of programs don’t do better than that. Why don’t they? Why doesn’t Rutgers or Penn State or Illinois hire a better coach so they can be better?

 

[builtbadgers]

I never said that. I think people who root for a coach or team to lose so they can start over are misguided. Losing to Nebraska doesn’t help the current staff or the current players or the next staff (if/when there is one). Doesn’t help recruiting. Doesn’t help the fan base.

I never cheer for us to lose period.

 

[UpAndUnder43]

I never cheer for us to lose period.

And I never said you did. But a lot of fans are happy we lost because it might get Pitino fired.

 

[bga1]

Has any coach of a high major program had as poor of a conference record as Pitino after 6 seasons and then went on to become very successful at that school in the following years? Serious question. If you can find one, it has to be an extreme rarity as I assume most coaches with his record were sh!t-canned.

He probably got the job too young. First you have to start with coaches that got a job this big and this big of an uphill climb when they were 30 or 31 years old. It's an unusual situation. He will probably have to drop to a mid major now and prove himself again. He has a lot of years to coach.
John Beilein- one of the top ten coaches in the country, bopped around for 22 years going from Erie to Lemoyne to Canisius to Richmond before landing at West Virginia. He won but he wasn't blowing to doors off by any means.

 

[howeda7]

I agree it shouldn’t be hard but a lot of programs don’t do better than that. Why don’t they? Why doesn’t Rutgers or Penn State or Illinois hire a better coach so they can be better?

Most teams do better than that. Brad Underwood won't get to 37-67 at Illinois, he'll be fired long before that. They have standards.

Penn State and Rutgers are two of the absolute worst power 6 programs in college basketball. And we're barely better than them over the last 6 years.That's pathetic and unacceptable. And even they run out of patience eventually. Chambers will be fired too.

 

[Kargs2]

I like this post because I am in the same situation with my high school team. Worry about the coach at the end of the season. People complain after every game when we could easily go on a run at the end of the year, right now just support the team and the program .

 

[EG#9]

A lot of people seem to be stuck on me thinking that Pitino is the answer or that he should be given a lifetime extension. I never once said that. I’m saying the grass isn’t always greener and to be happy your team lost a game is really odd to me. You want to root for a winner but want them to lose first?

And I have a full time job. I’m not going to scour the Internet to see if coaches have been successful after a run like Pitinos. What a waste of my life.

I don't actually see anyone who was rooting for them to lose tonight. I am not sure how it is "a waste of your life" to try to see if the opinion you state in the original post has any basis in reality. I think you would find that coaches simply don't turn things around, at least not at the same school, after six seasons. A lot of schools wouldn't have given Pitino a 6th year with his record through 5 years and the 3 off the court issues (2 serious, 1 not) that occurred.

 

[mplarson7]

I never said that. I think people who root for a coach or team to lose so they can start over are misguided. Losing to Nebraska doesn’t help the current staff or the current players or the next staff (if/when there is one). Doesn’t help recruiting. Doesn’t help the fan base.

I don't see people rooting for Pitino to fail or the Gophers to lose.

Personally, I don't want them to lose or fail either. But I will say, however the season plays out I want the decision to stick with Pitino or fire him to be clearly obvious. I don't want to be left in this weird limbo situation of maybe we fire him, maybe we keep him and hope it gets better.

 

[Dunceswithwolves]

Has any coach of a high major program had as poor of a conference record as Pitino after 6 seasons and then went on to become very successful at that school in the following years? Serious question. If you can find one, it has to be an extreme rarity as I assume most coaches with his record were sh!t-canned.

This is not a high major -- after 7 years of drudgery, John Calhoun at Northeastern made the NCAA tournament 5 of the next 7 years.

1972–73 Northeastern 19–7
1973–74 Northeastern 12–11
1974–75 Northeastern 12–12
1975–76 Northeastern 12–13
1976–77 Northeastern 12–14
1977–78 Northeastern 14–12
1978–79 Northeastern 13–13

 

[bfast]

If you want to gin up 4/5 star caliber teams (sweet-16 type) out of a 3-star talent pool, you need to do it either through shrewd recruiting/culture or a good system of play.

Fleck and Gopher football are starting to flex shrewd recruiting, while Wisconsin basketball hangs its hat on a good system.

I don't really see one of the two above identities with Pitino's regime, whereas we are starting to see it with Fleck and the football program.

It's more of a, "recruit the most raw talent we can and then go out there and ball" approach with Pitino. That works at a blue-blood, but not here. Have an identity.

 

[GopherVotary]

Embarrassing program, on and off the court.

 

[ltf]

Coyle didnt hesitate to make a move with the football program when he saw it necessary so I believe he will do the same with bb when he thinks it is needed. He certainly has way more information and input than anyone else, so I'll trust his judgment either way.

 

[BarnBurner]

I agree it shouldn’t be hard but a lot of programs don’t do better than that. Why don’t they? Why doesn’t Rutgers or Penn State or Illinois hire a better coach so they can be better?

Yup

No one would come here after the clem scandal. It lingers to this very day.

 

[Moonlight]

Good post.

The worst thing that happened to us was hiring a great coach like Tubby Smith and him not getting it done. Now we are the only place that Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith couldn't win at. Not once did he get above .500. Minnesota ended Musselman's college coaching career, it ended Dutcher's coaching career, it ended Haskin's coaching career. Monson dropped to a lower level. Tubby had to go to a basement team. It's not easy here. The best coaches we ever had took high risk players to try to get it done and got burned with sanctions or scandals.

This coach was supposed to be the long term play that gave us stability. Those calling for him to be fired are not wrong, but the next coach may not be the answer either. I HOPE HE IS! Pitino is wishing he had taken that Bama job right about now...if it was ever offered.

Did you stop following his career after he left here? I think Tubby himself has pretty much resolved this concern.

 

[cjbfbp]

This seems like a losing attitude to me. Tubby Smith was here 6 years. He went to 3 NCAA tournaments. He had his own share of bad luck. He coached/recruited under the longest dry spell of in state talent of my lifetime. He still underachieved. He lost a lot of games like the one tonight where you are just scratching your head at how the Gophers didn't have the game put away with 5 minutes left. Dan Monson coached for 8 seasons (7 B1G seasoson) he was widely criticized for being the worst Gopher coach of all time by many GopherHolers who have (or in some cases had) been around since the 50's or 60's. Monson had a 9-7 an 8-8, and a 10-6 conference season among his 7 conference seasons. His overall conference record was horrific (44-68) but he was one failure to get the ball across half court in the last game of the season from having two tournament teams in his first 6 seasons. Pitino is now 37-67 in conference play. Someone posted that since he took over the Gophers conference record is only better than Penn State and Rutgers. This is absolutely rock bottom for this program under any historical measure.

It doesn't take long to turn around a basketball program. TCU had not been better than 4-14 in conference play in their 4 years in the Big 12 before Jamie Dixon took over. Their last appearance in the NIT! (never mind the NCAA) had occurred in 2004-2005. In Dixon's first year the Horned Frogs won the NIT. In his second they finished 9-9 in conference play and made the NCAA tournament. It's hard to find a worse situation than TCU and Dixon did that in two years.

Fred Hoiberg took over an Iowa State basketball program that had gone 4-12 for 3 consecutive seasons in Big 12 play. This is a program that has historically never gotten the top Iowa talent (and there is very little of that to begin with). Fred went 3-13 in conference play his first year. After that? 12-6, 11-7,11-7, 12-6. He had a sweet 16 in that span and won a game in the tournament two other times.

The Gophers have given every coach they've hired post Clem plenty of time. Every coach has gotten at least 6 seasons despite none of them achieving anything of significance to extend their grace period to develop a consistent program. You are free to have any opinion you want, but I'd challenge you to find two examples of coaches who had conference records as poor as Pitino's over a 6 year time frame at any power 5/high major school who turned in to winners after that point.

I agree with just about everything in your post except for two things: 1) I would say that Tubby was modestly successful here or at least much better than Pitino and 2) the comments about Iowa State and the importance of in-state talent.

I would love to have Hoiberg as a coach here and I agree that he resurrected the Iowa State program from a period of the doldrums. Iowa State didn't have quite as long of a lean period as this program though. Hoiberg's predecessor didn't have success over his four years but Iowa State was a fairly successful program from Johnny Orr's tenure in the mid-eighties until about 20 years later; they had made the NCAA tournament 12 times and ended the season ranked 5 times over that 20 year period. In contrast, Minnesota has made the NCAA tournament 6 times in the last 20 years and hasn't been ranked at year-end once during that span.

Yes, Iowa doesn't have a lot of in-state talent, but Iowa State has never been the primary destination for in-state talent anyway. When those players went to in-state schools, they usually picked Iowa or UNI and, notably, the four most celebrated Iowa players over the last 20+ years (Raef LaFrentz, Nick Collinson, Kirk Hinrich, and Harrison Barnes) chose to leave the state for college.

The success of Iowa State is a reminder that worrying about in-state talent is archaic thinking. What matters is 1) the program's success, 2) the level of exposure the program gets through media, 3) the coaching reputation, 4) the program's competition, and 5) facilities. Gonzaga isn't located in a good recruiting area but they recruit players from across the globe. Rutgers is located in an outstanding area for basketball recruiting but they haven't made the NCAA tournament since 1991

 

[cjbfbp]

Coyle didnt hesitate to make a move with the football program when he saw it necessary so I believe he will do the same with bb when he thinks it is needed. He certainly has way more information and input than anyone else, so I'll trust his judgment either way.

That decision may have had less to do with Coyle than with others. People should remember that athletic directors are not the popes of universities. They are still under the authority of the president's office. They also pay close attention to the behaviors of donors and the trend of athletic department receipts. If Pitino is fired, that action may be influenced by people other than Coyle.