IW

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Start IW, Kalscheur, Coffey, Murphy, Curry

McBrayer, Oturu for Curry and either IW or Kalscheur as first sub.

In my opinion Isaiah has earned more freedom to create. He is our best shot at reaching this teams potential. Next step in his progression is starting to hit a floater/ pull up J at the elbows.

He is already playing better D. Someone posted his rip on Stephens leading to a 3. He also hustled back at a critical juncture in the second half and fouled the PSU player preventing an open layup. PSU missed both free throws.

Coffey and McBrayer just cannot get past strong on ball defenders and the offense bogs down.

Pitino also needs to switch his play calling tactic in the 30 second clock era.


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diehard said:
I am beginning to doubt that IW is ever going to be a major positive factor for the Gophers. I hope I am wrong. Last night? More turnovers than assists. Poor defense. 0 for 4 shooting. Carr is our point guard next year, not IW. He does not fit this team. I don't think he fits B1G basketball. I still hope I am wrong.

Our guards will struggle all year except when Amir has the hot hand. We are just a point guard away. Gonzaga got our guy for this year.
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Got it, I see you didn't watch any of the game last night.
 

In the second half, when Gophs were down 8/10, it was when IW subbed in after Gabe picked up his 4th foul that we made big run and went up 7. At about 6 minute mark Pitino subbed Gabe back in for IW, and within 2 minutes the game is tied. If Pitino doesn’t eff up and leave Gabe in with 3 fouls allowing him to pick up 4th early in 2nd, thus allowing IW to get extended minutes and facilitating comeback, we don’t win that game. I like Gabe, but he’s not a dynamic player, and really becomes a non-factor at times if people (IW) aren’t creating for him. I get it, he’s a gym rat and Pitino loves him, but that doesn’t win games. Dynamic PGs win games. This is no longer a debatable point, this team, on balance, is better with IW on the floor.
 

If defense is going to be this teams ID.... no way do you start IW over Gabe or Dupree.... no way!

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Frank Grimey Grimes said:
Got it, I see you didn't watch any of the game last night.
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Good one. I also enjoy how some people feel the need to cloak their negative comments with insincere remarks like "I hope I am wrong" in order to maintain a veneer of social respectability. If you're going to be a hater, at least have the backbone to be an unapologetic one. When I criticize Pitino, I don't preface that criticism with "I like Pitino...but." The truth is that I don't like him very much and wish we had a better coach.
 


IW played 22mins last night in a 65-64 W, over the bottom Big Ten team. 0-4 shooting, 1 TO, 2 Asst, 1 steal.

We have people saying this proves he needs to play more, and that the coach needs to adjust the team to fit IW.


This is the definition of people seeing what they want to see.
 

IW another solid game got team back in the game and build a decent lead with him getting team easy shots. Fun to see his development is going well.
 

gopherhoopsguy said:
IW another solid game got team back in the game and build a decent lead with him getting team easy shots. Fun to see his development is going well.
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22mins, 2 assists.

Sure, you can try to claim that he "creates" the offensive opportunities for other people to get the assists and points. But it's not like basketball hasn't been around for many, many years, and we know that good PG's get lots of assists. You can only deny statistics for so long.
 

Gophers_4life said:
22mins, 2 assists.

Sure, you can try to claim that he "creates" the offensive opportunities for other people to get the assists and points. But it's not like basketball hasn't been around for many, many years, and we know that good PG's get lots of assists. You can only deny statistics for so long.
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What was his +/-?


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bc2211 said:
What was his +/-?
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So if a player never compiles a single stat, but is physically standing on the floor when other players compile stats ...... that proves something. That's what you're saying, correct?
 

Gophers_4life said:
So if a player never compiles a single stat, but is physically standing on the floor when other players compile stats ...... that proves something. That's what you're saying, correct?
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Absolutely. Assuming that player was playing within the offense, keeping the ball moving and playing well on defense..all things IW was doing last night.
 

Gophers_4life said:
So if a player never compiles a single stat, but is physically standing on the floor when other players compile stats ...... that proves something. That's what you're saying, correct?
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You're correct that +/- is a flawed stat, but players can also help the team win without putting up big time stats. Our offense can get stagnant at times when he's off the floor. He helps a lot with that, which ultimately helps us score whether he gets the points/assist or not.
 

Gophers_4life said:
22mins, 2 assists.

Sure, you can try to claim that he "creates" the offensive opportunities for other people to get the assists and points. But it's not like basketball hasn't been around for many, many years, and we know that good PG's get lots of assists. You can only deny statistics for so long.
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Are you really ready to die on this hill?
Washington Assists: 66 (Leads the whole team by +18 over McBrayer)
 



Gophers_4life said:
So if a player never compiles a single stat, but is physically standing on the floor when other players compile stats ...... that proves something. That's what you're saying, correct?
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The +/- statistic is best analyzed with a set of players rather than a single player. It is an indirect measure but probably the most important one in a close game.

Unfortunately, the traditional box score doesn't measure a player's contribution to preventing adverse things. There is no measure for "shot clock violations or desperation shots avoided" or "points per possession allowed by Player X while guarding Player Y." Very good defenders are particularly slighted by the traditional box score. Even measures like steals or blocks are mixed bags. Gambling for a steal often allows an open path and going for a block often takes a player out of rebounding position.
 

Moonlight said:
Are you really ready to die on this hill?
Washington Assists: 66 (Leads the whole team by +18 over McBrayer)
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This. And IW has played way fewer minutes than Coffey, McBrayer and Kalscheur
 


Moonlight said:
Are you really ready to die on this hill?
Washington Assists: 66 (Leads the whole team by +18 over McBrayer)
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This. And another often-overlooked point. We are an awful shooting team. There have been several games in which IW made multiple nice feeds to a jump shooter who promptly missed open shots. In that crazy game where he nearly set an assist record, he should have set the record but for that reason. Unfortunately, the stats don’t always tell the whole story.


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Moonlight said:
Are you really ready to die on this hill?
Washington Assists: 66 (Leads the whole team by +18 over McBrayer)
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Only works for me if you do the numbers over only high-major teams, and still turns out to be true (which could very well be, I don't know).

No one is dying. Relax
 

Frank Grimey Grimes said:
Absolutely. Assuming that player was playing within the offense, keeping the ball moving and playing well on defense..all things IW was doing last night.
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Keyser Söze said:
You're correct that +/- is a flawed stat, but players can also help the team win without putting up big time stats. Our offense can get stagnant at times when he's off the floor. He helps a lot with that, which ultimately helps us score whether he gets the points/assist or not.
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cjbfbp said:
The +/- statistic is best analyzed with a set of players rather than a single player. It is an indirect measure but probably the most important one in a close game.

Unfortunately, the traditional box score doesn't measure a player's contribution to preventing adverse things. There is no measure for "shot clock violations or desperation shots avoided" or "points per possession allowed by Player X while guarding Player Y." Very good defenders are particularly slighted by the traditional box score. Even measures like steals or blocks are mixed bags. Gambling for a steal often allows an open path and going for a block often takes a player out of rebounding position.
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OK

Thank you guys, for the patient, and well thought out responses.

I just wanted to challenge the idea. Not declare it, and its supporters my mortal enemy for life. :cool:
 

Bordergopher said:
This. And another often-overlooked point. We are an awful shooting team. There have been several games in which IW made multiple nice feeds to a jump shooter who promptly missed open shots. In that crazy game where he nearly set an assist record, he should have set the record but for that reason. Unfortunately, the stats don’t always tell the whole story.
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208th best FG% team in the country. 295th best 3pt%. Harder to pile up gaudy assist numbers with this team full of bricklayers. Most of this team's assists are probably on fast breaks.
 

Gophers_4life said:
That doesn't work for me because it includes all opponents, including lower level competition.
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Most important is what Pitino and the staff see. They deem him to not get more than he gets. He is only a sophomore. Why is it so hard. Did people see the jelly fam highlights and think he would play like that ! The staff monitors every possession in every line up against every opponent rotation and sees him in practice everyday. Then they make decisions, very well informed decisions on who to play, when all in aplan that provides the team with the best chance to win. On a message board everyone has the right to their opinion but the fact is the staff has all the information geared towards the goal not some bias to what they wish they were seeing or think they would e seeing. He is a tremendous passer but loose with the ball, positions very poorly on defense, does not get wide and is a poor shooter for now. There is still time for him to become a winning player.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Only works for me if you do the numbers over only high-major teams, and still turns out to be true (which could very well be, I don't know).
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Thank you for letting us know that despite requesting statistics, you're just too lazy to look at them yourself.
 


At this point, I'd say Pitino's job depends on handing the ball to IW and him responding by playing better and better. This team as currently made up, without someone running the offense, is not going to make it into the NCAAs. IW is a gamble, but I think it is the gamble Pitino is going to have to take to have a hope of this team reaching it's max potential. I realize that there are other things - better, more consistent defense and better shooting that will have to also happen as well.
 

Gophers_4life said:
You tried to make a point using invalid statistics. The burden of proof lies with you.
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Well...no. You made the claim that the statistics are invalid. The burden of proof lies with you to prove that they are invalid. And saying "it doesn't work for me" is not exactly rock solid proof.
 

Gophers_4life said:
OK

Thank you guys, for the patient, and well thought out responses.

I just wanted to challenge the idea. Not declare it, and its supporters my mortal enemy for life. :cool:
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I brought up +/- to add context to this discussion. I wasn’t suggesting it was the definitive metric. You are challenging for the sake of arguing, not for the sake of assessing IW’s value.

Which is pretty annoying.

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GibsonSG said:
208th best FG% team in the country. 295th best 3pt%. Harder to pile up gaudy assist numbers with this team full of bricklayers. Most of this team's assists are probably on fast breaks.
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They had 16 assists on 20 made FG yesterday, they did not have many transition hoops. One of IW’s assists was on a fast break though. Do you know who the biggest brick layer on the team with the worst offensive efficiency numbers and TS% is?

The guy you all want to see take additional minutes from two of our best shooting guards. He is also one of the worst on the team in FTA/FGA, which has really been our only way to create offense in many games this year. 20 minutes on a shortened bench is about right for Washington, more when you see him riding a hot streak.
 
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Moonlight said:
IW's stats dont suck, even in a traditional box score.
I suggest this page for a simple reference when you want to argue stats:
https://gophersports.com/cumestats.aspx?path=mbball
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He is one of the worst shooters in the conference and as a defender grades way behind Gabe or Dupree. Some of the defensive issues are that he is not as versatile due to his lack of length but there is still time to become a good Big 10 player.
 

He's not that bad of a shooter. He needs to improve shot selection and earn more consistent minutes. Last year- once Pitino was forced to go with IW the rest of the Big Ten season he averaged about 45% shooting. He needs to stop driving in for contested layups or learn to draw contact instead of the Jelly finishes which are almost always blocked. He has a decent mid range touch and good shooting form.
 

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