BleedGopher
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Go Gophers!!
Go Gophers!!
Where would this team finish in Big Ten?
- Thread starter BleedGopher
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We were mistaken. They'd be 8-6 right now at best. Maybe 9-5 with Curry.
Gold Vision
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Yeah. The defense was an issue even at full strength. In a down B1G, we’d at least have a winning record though.
Ewert86PC
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+10. Gold Vision has it right, this team has no defense. If you add to that just how streaky Mason, Coffey and McBrayer are shooting. It could be worse.
gophereric30
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We have a team out there that might struggle with Chicago state. I get that we weren't the best defensive team before but how do we even talk about how bad our defense is. We have nobody out there. We rip on our defense before but seriously lynch was huge! Didn't have to defend the inside because lynch would just block the shot or at least change how teams would approach things. Don't get on pitino for this! Duke sucks on defense too and they have nothing but 5 star guys so we think pitino isn't trying to work on our defense? I'm sure he is but look at what he's working with. Duke has been terrible on defense all year! Does coach K not work on defense? He's had like 28 games to improve too so the almighty coach K has issues with five star guys but we get upset when big ten teams score on us at will when we have nobody out there. I would admit that I would like us to be better on defense in the past but come on why do we even evaluate our team now? We have nobody playing. After watching other big ten teams and our games I would find it very difficult to believe we wouldn't have made tournament if we had everyone available.
Oh really? So basically adding 3-4 of the Top 6 players back into the lineup would have STILL resulted in 6 conf losses?
I'll give you the home loss to Purdue and probably the road loss to NW.
The game vs Nebraska, with only Curry out, was a game that Lynch and Murphy getting into foul trouble was what hurt us more than anything. Konate and Hurt each had as many fouls as they did points, 2 & 1, and 2 & 1. So neither was much help. Mason also got into foul trouble, and that was McBreyer's first game back from his injury and Fitz's only contribution in relief was as many fouls as Konate & Hurt combined, without the 3 pts though. I don't even think Harris played that game, but if he did, he had zeros across his stat line. And I don't think Gaston played in this game, either? So if you don't think having Curry coming in off the bench to take over for Lynch when he got into foul trouble, then you are just an idiot. The ONLY way you can get me to believe that this game would still have gone Nebraska's way, is if you think the home cooking refs were so incredibly dead set and determined to help the home team win that they would have just called Curry for a bunch of fouls as well, then maybe? But he still would have gotten a significant amount of minutes in before Konate would have had to go in. Could have changed the momentum of the game enough?
The 4 pt loss to IU, with fully 3 of our Top 6 missing, would have easily gone our way.
The 11 pt loss @ Maryland, with fully 3 of our Top 6 missing, would have easily gone our way. We were only down by 1 at the half without those 3.
The 8 pt loss vs NW, with fully 3 of our Top 6 missing, would have easily gone our way. We were up by 6 at the half without them.
The 3 pt loss @ Michigan, with fully 3 of our Top 6 and 5 total missing, would have totally gone our way. I'm sure we all agree about this one.
The 6 pt loss vs Nebraska, with fully 3 of our Top 6 missing, 4-5 total, would also have easily gone our way.
So that gives us 8, so far, 9 (with Curry, if you count the 1st Nebraska game?) as we obviously would have still won the RU, OSU and Illinois games.
That leaves 3 games I didn't mention.
I want to discuss them in more detail.
I thought we would be 3rd in the Conference this year. Based on how they played prior to everything falling apart I think 4th or 5th is more realistic simply because Nebraska and Ohio State are much better than I anticipated.
Not sure I agree with this? The reason I'm not sure is because if you look closely at Nebraska's and Ohio St's scedules, it seems that they simply got very favorable/weaker scedules.
OSU for one, got to play 4 straight home games before going on the road to play Purdue. Must be nice?!
In comparison, Minny played 6 road games over an 8 game stretch.
OSU has played 8 home games in conference and 1 neutral court game, compared to just 5 road games, with their first 3 road games being vs UW, Iowa & Rutgers. NW was their 4th.
Before their road win over Purdue, they basically had a very weak Resume. Their best road win before PU was vs #96 RPI NW.
And its common knowledge that Nebraska's resume is not very impressive, at least not for a 4th/5th place team in the B1G. A lot of cbb fans still are not convinced Nebraska will even make it into the Big Dance.
But... considering my own argument, honestly UMn may have finished only 4th or 5th, because of having to play a tougher schedule, BUT, despite finishing below both OSU and Neb in the conf standings, I believe we'd have had a more impressive resume than both OSU and Neb, had we had our full lineup.
I'll with Lynch/Coffey. Curry's been out the full time and no one can assume zero injuries.
Vs. IU: Lost by 4. Would have won with Lynch/Coffey, no doubt. +1
@NW: Lost by 23. IIRC, we were down by as much as 30. Players admitted they didn't prepare for the zone. We've lost to far worse NW teams over the years. We still lose.
Purdue: There's actually a better argument here since it was single digits in the second half. But Purdue is far better than us even at full strength and we lost by 34. Loss.
@PSU: Win
@Maryland: We lost by 11. Harris and Fitzgerald scored 20 points. Coffey would have taken minutes from them, so it's not clear how much he swings it. Lynch makes a bigger difference. In a closer game, Home Cookin would have come into play. Toss-up.
@OSU: Lost by 18. Coffey played. Lynch doesn't make in 18 point difference. Loss.
Northwestern: Lost by 8. It was closer than 8. Having Lynch probably swings it. W (+2)
@Iowa: Lost by 14. Hurt, Fitzgerald and Washington scored 38 points. Again, Coffey/Lynch would have taken some of their minutes. Toss-up.
@Michigan: Lost in OT. On the surface it seems easy we win this. However, Coffey would have taken minutes from IW who scored 26, and Lynch would have been a bad match-up with Wagner. That said, I still think we win. (+3).
Nebraska: Lost by 6: Win (+4)
Indiana: Lost by 24: Pathetic effort all around. IU took the foot off the gas. This always felt like a trap game with the weird game time and it's hard to win in Assembly Hall. Loss.
Net: We win 4 games (IU, NW, @MI, NE) and split the toss-up (@MD, @IA). Instead of being 3-11, we're 8-6. We'd be squarely on the bubble, playing for our tournament lives against MSU on Tuesday. You can argue this maybe one game one way or the other, but that's it.
I won't critique your analysis game by game, as I agreed with all but 4 of them, and for now I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and accept the "one game one way or the other" and obviously would go the positive way with that, putting us at 9-5, with a FAR stronger SOS than Nebraska who we would be tied for 4th place with at 9-5. We'd be comfortably in, NU would be the bubble team. And we have 2 games remaining vs Iowa and Wisconsin. So we'd finish at worst 11-7, IF I concede we'd lose to MSU and Purdue since they are both ranked Top 4 and OH SO AWESOME, right???
Just in general, one thing you seemed not to factor in to your analysis is that added offense is not the only difference adding 2-3 players to a game brings.
For every additional basket the Gophers score because of having those 2 players available on offense, there is also the additional defense, scores by the other team are stopped that otherwise weren't because guys like Konate or a hobbled McBrayer were the defenders.
Also, adding say just 25 minutes for each player, combined is 50 minutes that Konate or a hobbled McBrayer or a not quite as good Hurt do not need to be out on the court. And would McBrayer's health have deteriorated the way it did if he didn't feel compelled to be playing? He could have been sat out of a few games and been allowed to heal up and the games he did play in he would have been more effective. Lynch and Coffey going out exasperated McBrayer's situation.
Individually, Coffey may have played vs OSU, but how effective was he? When he first got injured, it was announced that he would be out until Feb 2nd. His coming back to play the OSU game was his coming back WAY too early, the result being he aggravated the injury.
Had he simply been healthy that game, along with Lynch, I'd say that could have made an 18 pt difference. That was the 5th game they had played in the 5th different city over an 11 day period. No way fatigue wasn't a factor. Add another 50 minutes and every other player on that team has more energy in the 2nd half. And they were only down 7 pts at the half, WITHOUT Lynch and a healthy Coffey.
And the same could be applied to the Purdue game, even you said we played them pretty well in the 1st half. The game at Iowa was only a 4 pt game very late in the game. Adding Lynch and Coffey may have totally swung the momentum our way and also prevented the team from running out of gas at the very end.
So its not out of the realm of possibility that 9-5 is the best we could have possibly done.
And the Indiana game? Maybe going into that game sitting at 9-4 or 8-5 with a full lineup of players would have changed the whole vibe of the game from the opening tip off?
I have a friend with 4 kids that all were very successful in sports, and he was a huge Vikings fan, and he always said, "Winning begets winning and losing begets losing". Had we not had to deal with the loss of Lynch and Coffey and had won just the IU and Maryland games even, we'd have been in a great position to win 4 in a row going into the game in Assembly Hall and well, you say they put in a pathetic effort all around, that probably would not have been the case.
builtbadgers
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If, but , could, would, should. Near 50 years now, about thay for the Vikings too, i banned that kind of language a long time ago. I was raised to never whine or make excuses and raised my kids that way to great effect. Injuries have destroyed this year but it is a bold myth that no coach could have won a game or two more. Bo Ryan would be at least 500 in this weak conference with the uninjured or non suspended talent. Murph, Mason, Harris, Washington, Dupree . Harris and Hurt are more than enough to hold teams to under 60 and win.
Well, why on earth have you selfishly withheld your genius coaching services from the world? The Gophers could have used you coming forward 5 years ago to save us from having to hire Pitino???
builtbadgers
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Because Richard is a much better coach than i am but the search committee was advised about coaches that were far better than Richard. I can admit that i fall off the planet when it comes to coaching but you can not admit that there are coaches who would get this roster to .500 in conference. Of course by year 5 they would be so much further along.
Are there coaches out there who would have had a better year 1, 2 & 3 than Pitino? Sure! And they were either coaching elsewhere and not willing to come here, or they passed on us, or our search committee didn't offer them the job? Instead they went with a guy with very little head coaching experience, but who they thought had good connections and good mentoring and someone our former AD thought he could take credit for "discovering", and someone they apparently thought would stick around for a very long time, and whose name might open some doors, I guess?
So we hired him, he didn't set the cbb world on fire right off the bat, had a couple recruiting gambles that didn't pan out, but that were excellent students and people and teammates, so he did the principled thing and kept them around to finish their degrees and only AFTER the injuries, has it become a problem.
So some other creep might have ran them off by now, I'd prefer the decent guy who did the right thing.
Some other coach wouldn't have brought them both in even, and that coach, like I said, was already coaching elsewhere, or turned us down, or never got offered the job.
SO... LAST YEAR, without injuries to hold HIS recruits back, he had a great season, won COY and got an extension. Now it would cost 5.4 mil to buy out his contract. Then the injuries started in the offseason, then the suspension and then more injuries. Now impatient armchair QBs too quickly forget about last year, and want him fired OR are willing to give him one more year but just can't resist the temptation to bitch and moan and whine and complain and nitpick and try to spread their negativity. You all are like people with a virus or contagious disease that insist on going to work to the grocery store and to the movies, etc., caring not whether they spread their virus or disease and in fact do it on purpose, the kind of people that feel that if they have to suffer that they want everyone else to suffer as well.
If not for the injuries, this season would have DWARFED any other coaches 5th year. Clem won only 5 games, Monson only 3, Tubby only 6.
Btw, Tubby only won 6 games in his 4th season, too.
Instead of praising guys like Coffey & McBreyer who played in games in pain, when they weren't even allowed to practice, you choose to criticize them for supposedly not trying hard enough and for playing poorly on the defensive end of the court.
Instead of recognizing that these guys are probably getting tired during games, and understanding that someone like Mason, who has a career as a professional bb player to look forward to, might not feel it best to give 110% in the 2nd half of a game that has already gotten away from them. Overmatched & outnumbered and already behind?
What do you think Mason's parents and friends are advising him to do in those blowout losses? I don't think players are allowed to hire agents, but can then talk to them? Maybe he's shopping around for an agent and in doing so is being told NOT to give 110% and risk injury? Honestly, if fans keep not showing up at home games and keep talking trash about him online, he might be smart to leave the team and concentrate on preparing for the draft, not that he'll get drafted, but it might lead to a professional career of some kind at some level?
As for Murphy? He's probably also thinking about his future. If he can get through this season without getting injured, next year could be a gigantic year for him and could lead to a career in the NBA maybe?
McBrayer? I hope no one is criticizing his effort? Who else isn't playing hard? Konate? Why would he care what Gopher fans think of him? Why would he play hard? Name me a single Gopher fan that hasn't ripped on him? He probably shows up just so he is allowed to finish school and get his degree?
GopherHoopsFan
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My favorite part of how people react when a season falls apart: Suddenly it's impossible that the team would have improved over the course of the season had they stayed healthy. It's entirely possible that the players who continued to play would have improved. Not saying that they would have, but it's funny how so many people find it necessary to be negative.
Negativity breeds negativity.
Fans get to feeling high and mighty, like they deserve more from their team, more entertainment value for their dollar, so they start boycotting the team in a sense, stop going to games, so the crowds are far from raucous and loud and exciting and ENCOURAGING, and the team picks up on this. Also, I doubt players read the GH, but there is no way on earth those guys are totally unaware of the negative vibe spreading among fans, at games, online, in public, etc..
It what happens when such a large percentage of Gopher fans are bandwagon fans. And it's even worse when the diehards start feeling like they are owed more than they are getting, as if THEIR needs are what are the most important? These are STUDENT-athletes, not professional athletes. And they PAY for their education, maybe not in cash, but in blood, sweat & time given freely to the service of the University, that makes money off of their efforts, btw. I guarantee you that the U makes a higher profit off of the blood, sweat and time given to it by the players on the bb team than the U gives away in free education. And sure, some guys like Bakary and Gaston are making out like fat cats, but others like Mason and Murphy are giving far more than they are getting in return.
And just like the 2nd player getting injured, Coffey, and the suspension of Lynch added stress on the team as a whole, and on the coach to figure out what to do, it also negatively affected McBrayer's health, and Coffey's recovery time, and over time, the horrible schedule, all the travel, the fan disinterest and negative attitudes, always asking, demanding more of the players, unrealistic expectations, etc., well, it's like a row of dominoes, once the first domino falls, the rest seem to follow along. Sort of a "for every action, there is a corresponding reaction" kind of thing.
Fans first of all, shouldn't act like they are demanding an X amount of entertainment value for their dollar. That's a horrible attitude. If you don't like a movie, nobody gets their money back. They just hope the next show is better. If you lose a big hand in poker where you had a 96% chance of winning going into the river but lost, you don't give up playing poker, you go back knowing the odds are in your favor the next game. Right now it seems like your opponent has 95% of the chips, so there is no hope, but all you have to do is go all in and win 3 hands in a row and you are back to having 40% of the chips and its back to being a game again. But sometimes you have to fold 2 or 3 hands before making those 3 all in pushes. So right now, this team simply needs to basically fold a few hands, and hopefully by next fall the cards will turn again to our favor!!!
Btw, for the University that invented cheerleading(and all of the first cheerleaders were men, basically), our fans kind of suck. And yes, I am inferring that THE FANS are supposed to act like cheerleaders, cheering for the home team no matter what!!! This program needs more fans who are willing to sit through some ugly games/seasons.
We want top notch coaches and players to come up here to the Frozen Tundra, to Cbb laughingstock U, and then heap upon them the same kind of expectations you might find at UNC or Duke or UCLA or UK???
This is friggin Minnesota, we need to become the fan base that sits through several ugly seasons in a row, through thick and thin, through rain and snow, that PROVES our dedication and loyalty to the program, before we deserve to have any of these supposed GREAT coaches or GREAT players coming up here to freeze their arses off.
We need recruits to come to games where we are getting blown away and see that despite how the team is doing, that we as a fanbase are doing all we can to support and inspire our team.
builtbadgers
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What about the expectations at UW or Butler or Xavier or UVA where they built excellence by hiring the right coaches. Is it ok to want that, Is it OK to want a great coach ? Sure they are hard to find but if you follow the lead on how Richter went about it, or Littlepage or Sterk instead of counting on Maturi or Teague and Villa 7. Villa 7 became a national joke to the network of retired successful , hall of fame coaches and in some cases players. Sterk asked Jerry West and Bob Knight who was the best of the young coaches getting in the game, Coach K verified it and paved the way. Earlier, that is how Matta got his start. It is hard, there are not many but great things take great minds and just like in any sport they must be vetted by the best of the best. We finally used that method in hiring Fleck. Football is even more difficult and time will tell but they went about it the right way. In Hoops a great coach can survive with three of his own players in a down year but every single one established lock down defense from day one, cut no corners on character. It is not Richards fault he was hired, great opportunity but the way he was settled on was pathetic and mismanaged by one truly horrible AD in a string of lousy AD's.
UW got lucky with the Sr Bennet making the FF. Without that run, his tenure at UW would have been very Unspectacular. Maybe they don't hire Bo, if they don't go on that very unexpected FF run?
Xavier? What, they are FINALLY having a good year and you parade them out as if this is a regular occurance? Xavier doing this well is a very RARE occurance.
UVA? Sure, they are doing great, its the REGULAR season, until they ALSO deliver in the post season, I just won't buy into it.
And Villa 7 may have BECOME a national joke, but I don't remember it being so at the time we hired Pitino.
And our AD wasn't known AT THAT TIME, at least not by the general public, to be a drunken arse, either.
But we are stuck with Pitino, and his COY season that got him an extension, and his 5.4 million dollar buy out. OH, and all of his pretty kick arse recruits, too.
And if not for this year's injuries, Pitino would have had BY FAR the greatest year 4 & 5 w/l conf record of any Gopher coach, EVER, and it wouldn't have even been close? I mean, maybe if you went back to 1903 era, that coach maybe? But otherwise, like I said, NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
So just STFU already. JESUS CHRIST already?! And yes, I said Jesus Christ. A totally made up name taken out of thin air that shouldn't offend a single TRUE believer of any religion. The whole world knows his name wasn't "Jesus". And if it wasn't taken out of thin air, OM, you don't even want to know where it might have otherwise come from.
I mean seriously, defense was Top 25 last year, B1G COY, only thing that changed from last year to this year was a HUGE # of injuries to STARTERS!!!!!
But you have this strange obsession/hatred of RP, that is verging on unhealthy.
My guess is you think Lynch is a RAPIST??? Despite the police not pursuing anything against him? 1st case was dropped, not just by police but even by the super sensitive and voracious liberal women are always right, honorable and truthful UMn Moral police, and the next 2 accusations are just that, simply accusations, and accusations that the police are not pursuing and that he has adamantly denied. His biggest crime in your opinion is that he's a Pitino recruit? Man, your hatred of Pitino is STRONG???
You so want to stain his name, you desperately grasp for anything that you can to TRY to make him look bad.
Kind of sad and pathetic, if you ask me. You CLAIM this isn't personal, but if I was RP, I'd probably take all the sh1t you are saying about me VERY personally. As nice as it would be to be a HC of a B1G bb program, with the pay that comes with it, I'm ok with not being RP, and if I was, I'd take the very first offer I got from another program to get away from this place. RP is not from here, didn't go to school here, and without a monetary incentive to stay here, why should he??? Because we love him so unconditionally and treat him so well and so respectfully? OMG?! Me? I was born here, raised up a Gopher fan and as an adult CHOSE to be a loyal Gopher fan to my grave.
This alone shows astounding ignorance of college basketball. Is your name Jim by chance? Are you like, really, really fit?
builtbadgers
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You can mock luck all you want but you do not knock out Arizona with luck, they had 7 NBA players on that team and were a one seed. You do not make a final 4 on luck. He left a slew of guys in the pipeline as well as his son who already hand delivered Kirk Penney, Mike Wilkinson,Alando Tucker and Devin Harris into the program. Further, brush up on what else he built along the way and he invented the Packline defense, Phil Jackson hired him to be a defensive consultant for the Bulls. Pat Riley thinks that getting to a final 4 without a first,2nd or 3rd team all conference player was the best job he has seen. You think Xavier has had one good year ! Let me know when we ever equal what they have done. And you mock UVA for it only being the regular season but you crow about the record the Gophers had last season, no tourney victories. UVA is one of a handful of programs that have won at least one tourney game four years running ! We have never done that. Over .500 in 7 straight ACC seasons, UVA had never done that. Sellouts, new arena, kids getting masters degrees, NBA players , Conference titles , Conference tourney title. Little stop at WSU which is a much tougher job than Minnesota and resulted in 2 26 win teams and a sweet 16, the unearthing of Klay Thompson, multiple national coach of the year awards, including the real one, conference coach of the year awards are childs play for him. He gets those without creating the mess that had to be cleaned up to get the award. Do you think Richard is a better coach than Tony Bennett, every AD would take Bennett, every president, every regent. Richards own dad calls Bennett the best coach in the country ! You point to regular seasons not counting and then Brag about one OK season here. Plus we rarely go 15 months without some character or credit issue. Your using Lynch and Rape in the same sentence not me. I have nothing to do with it, that is handled by people who feel strongly about poor conduct of a certain player in this situation and want safety for all students not to mention dignity for the school and program. absolute disgraceful basketball program on every level. I have supported the U and this program for over 50 years. I built my law practice representing basketball coaches. You hurl unhealthy at me and yet you want to ignore the success other schools have. You want excuses for failure here but call it luck or insignificant when other programs have actual success. Accepting that loser excuse attitude and not recognizing actual success and not demanding it here is exactly why we suck. He is not going anywhere, he is not getting offers from any power conference teams and programs. His agent put out the Alabama rumors, they were never interested. My son is the agent for the AD there. He can still win here. I will still write my check for my great seats and donation as well as the endowed scholarship but do not act like he is proving that he is elite.
Compared to the Gophers, sure, then they probably look incredible, but ZERO FFs???
Oh yeah, they made the E8 just last year, so what? You are young and can't remember how Xavier needed to 1987 just to get a single win in the NCAA tourney, and then needed another 18 years to get to their first Elite 8?
So is it my "ignorance of college basketball" or my knowing about more than the last 15 years???
And even when they did make the Elite 8 or Sweet 16 in the past, they rarely did so as a Top 8 or Top 16 ranked team.
I'm not dissing them, just its rare to see them ranked so high in the polls. 1 Elite 8 in the last 9 years does not make them a super cbb power. My guess is that they were not ranked in the Top 10 even once in the last decade.
You said Xavier was FINALLY having a good year, and them having a year this good is RARE. They've made 6 Sweet 16's in the last 10 years. Anyone who's not Duke/UNC/Kentucky would consider that a good year. Your comment is ignorant by any standard.
builtbadgers
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I lose. Bennett would not allow a statue. The rock hard stats alone make TB the winner in a giant landslide. Back and forth on regular season counting for Richard, but not for anyone else, postseason failure or luck all depending on who should be slandered or honored. Total ignorance on Xavier !
Finally having a good year IN THE POLLS!!!
Making Sweet 16s when you aren't ranked in the Top 20 is far different than ACTUALLY BEING RANKED among the Top 8! Duh!!!
SelectionSunday
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Xavier probably not a program I'd be picking at, especially in a comparison to Minnesota. It's been a very good program for a long, long time, spanning numerous different coaches (Gillen, Prosser, Miller, Matta, Mack). Did I miss anyone?
Richard would do well to have half the success Xavier has had.
Zeppelin Gopher
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Ignorant is being kind. The guy is a rambling idiot
builtbadgers
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And Zeppelin and any other objective fans, i apologize for the lengthy posts about other programs. It is just that i support 4 programs but live here most of the year and have loved the Gophs for 50 plus years and am tired of being mediocre. Have had some experience and success in the way coaches are vetted and hired and have been very frustrated with how things have happened at the U.